Author Topic: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?  (Read 6536 times)

Offline GScholz

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2012, 02:37:03 PM »
Yes, I understood that.


Yup, doesn't change the fact the trigger functionality is overloaded. You have to dry fire the weapon to de-cock it, that's unintelligent, from the design point of view.

Then 99% of all firearms ever made are "unintelligent, from the design point of view." Only a very few guns are made with a decocking feature that does not require the trigger to be depressed. I've personally never held such a weapon. Perhaps because the very reason why you always should dry-fire a weapon while clearing it is to make sure it really is not loaded.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2012, 03:43:47 PM »
Does lowering the hammer on a Colt 45 constitute dry firing?

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Offline GScholz

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2012, 04:27:49 PM »
You do need to depress the trigger to lower the hammer on a Colt .45 /M1911, so yes it fits your "trigger functionality is overloaded" argument.
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Offline TheMercinary60

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2012, 04:43:57 PM »
after seeing all the people say the gun is to complicated for joe everyman to clean it, maybe they just shouldn't own a gun, if you do not know what it takes to take care of your weapon and how to stay safe with it then you are obviously not responsible for being in the position to possibly take your, or anyone else's life. i was lucky in the regard that in my area hunter safety is mandatory in our school curriculum so you learn early on the dos and donts and the biggest dont there is is not to put anything in from of the barrel you cannot bear to lose.
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2012, 05:14:55 PM »
i had an accident with a Nerf once... I never ever thought they could break glass..  :uhoh
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Offline superpug1

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2012, 05:43:59 PM »
remove magazine, clear chamber. chamber clear? Continue. Not clear, repeat steps one and two until desired results manifest.

Offline Gman

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2012, 05:54:27 PM »
Quote
Perhaps because the very reason why you always should dry-fire a weapon while clearing it is to make sure it really is not loaded.



So, you're saying to confirm that your check of a weapon was actually correct, and that it is clear, that the thing to do is pull the trigger, the one function that will actually discharge a round if your initial check was wrong?  This sort of defeats the purpose and definition of "make sure it really isn't loaded" for safety purposes, don't you think?

The reason that pointing in a safe direction after confirming a weapon is clear and de-cocking or dry firing is to put the firing mechanism into an "at rest" state for purposes of keeping said mechanism, springs, and other stressed and wearing parts into a state that puts the least stress on them if it is being stored, but primarily it serves as a safety feature - avisual aid in the case of weapons with exposed hammers, so that it is readily apparent to anyone looking at it that it that the hammer is down and in a safer condition that being cocked.  Example, a 1911 that has been cleared and re-holstered on a range or during a course that still has the hammer back will attract the attention of wrath of the instructor or even other students, as it would be "hammer down" if the proper procedure on the line was followed - remove magazine, visually and tactily verify clear, release action/slide, decock/release hammer/dry fire in safe direction, the re-holster.  In the case of DA/SA/Internal Striker pistols, decocking or dry firing in order to accomplish the same thing is done for consistency reasons in terms of reholstering or storing the pistol after it has been cleared as well.  It has NOTHING to do with "verifying" or "confirming" that your visual and tactile check that the weapon is unloaded was right the first time, as if it wasn't, and you do dry fire it, the obvious result is "bang".  Kind of purpose defeating in terms of "making sure it's unloaded" don't you think?

Quote
Only a very few guns are made with a decocking feature that does not require the trigger to be depressed. I've personally never held such a weapon

I don't understand what you're saying here G.  I think there are MANY pistols that have de-cockers where you do NOT press the trigger to engage them.  The Sig 226, 220, 229, 228, CZ75/85/ BD models, CZ SP-01 (D means decocker), Most of the Ruger DA/SA line, HK USP, HK45, HK2000, Beretta 92/96 have a decocker built into the safety switch as well, the Walther P99's we ran on our range also had a decocking device, on the top rear left of the slide activated by the right thumb, it put the internal striker into it's double action stage with the longer pull, some of the Smith semi auto's have decockers as well, many of the Israeli "Baby Eagles" and "Jerichos" are decocker models.....you get my drift.  A majority of combat double action/single action pistols have a decocking device included, so pressing the trigger isn't necessary.  Ever try to pull the trigger and release the hammer slowly with your thumb when your hands are frozen from shooting outside in -40 or colder weather, or when you have blood, or sweat, or even just wetness from the rain on your hands?  Decocking is far safer and more reliable for putting your pistol into a re-holster safe condition.


I would also like to say that most, as in a huge majority of accidents that good or experienced shooters have is related to dry firing after failing to clear the weapon properly due to either distraction or being overtired, or just plain making a dumb mistake and not following all the rules in the proper sequence.  Dry firing in of itself is a very important tool for shooters, I was taught, and nearly every reputable gunfighting school teaches, that 80% of your training and practice with a pistol should be dry firing at targets, and running through your drills dry.  This allows you to build and improve your fire control (trigger press) skills far more quickly and cheaply than with live rounds, and also allows you to train any place you like that gives you some privacy, without having to go to a range.

As far as the OP and firearms safety, verifying that the weapon is clear is obviously the most important thing in safety, pointing in a safe direction, removing the magazine, visually checking the chamber and magazine well for ammunition or any obstructions at all while KEEPING the weapon pointed in that safe direction, then repeating the process with the index finger of the non dominant hand, in order to have a tactile confirmation of the empty status (this is not just a brain teaser type of thing or a confirmation, it is done to simulate having to clear a weapon in low or no light conditions), then release the action/slide, decock/dry fire/hammer release, then re holster, or re store.

Another very important thing regarding safety is weapon handling while using it.  We teach that you should imagine your muzzle has a constant beam or laser coming out of it, and anything that beam comes into contact with will be destroyed.  In other words, if you need to turn/move in order to engage or point your weapon, be cognizant of the things and obstacles in the path your muzzle will take.  Example, if there is a friendly ten feet in front of you, and you have to sweep through him in order to move or point your weapon  at something to the other side of him, you need to lower the muzzle as you trace the path AROUND AND BELOW him before bringing your weapon back up to engage your target.  There are many different examples and cases of this, but the bottom line is you move your body and weapon muzzle AROUND friendlies, and NEVER sweep them with your muzzle.

One last point, is that your fire control/trigger finger is an important factor as well.  That finger only goes to the trigger when the decision to fire is made, and then immediately returns to its off the trigger posture when done firing, and scanning using universal cover techniques, or whatever way you've been trained to follow through after firing/engaging.  If you watch any of the MagPul training videos on uTube, they show a good example of this with the AR platform rifles.  The instant the shooter is done firing, then scanning, the safety is immediately engaged on the rifle.  Then, when a new target is engaged, the weapon comes up and presents to the target, sight picture acquired, safety moved to the fire mode, finger then moves to the trigger, presses it, finger comes off the trigger and returns to at rest spot on the receiver, scans are done, then rifle is put back on safe.  It sounds like a lot to do in order to just shoot something, but it can all be done VERY quickly, and is critical for having consistent safety both operationally and on the practice/training range.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 06:02:57 PM by Gman »

Offline GScholz

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2012, 06:51:23 PM »
Yes. The final step after pointing the gun in a safe direction, removing the magazine and checking the chamber visually and/or physically (with your finger) is to dry-fire the weapon in a safe direction. If you hear a click and not a bang, you and everyone around you know the weapon is safe. At least that's how gun safety is thought in the Norwegian Army's weapon clearing drill, and at gun clubs. Of course YMMV on your side of the pond, but the video I posted earlier showing an American doing the exact same drill makes me doubt that.

As for the guns you mentioned with de-cockers, those would be in the 1% of weapons that have them. The rest of the 99% of all guns made don't have any such device. Admittedly I'm pulling these numbers out of my arse, but I'm going to stick by them until someone can prove otherwise.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2012, 07:05:13 PM »
You are a remarkably rigid thinker GScholz. it's taken I don't know how many posts to get you to concede that dry firing is a necessary step to disassemble certain firearms and now you are asserting that 99% of firearms are like this, so it must be right.  :frown:

Gman, I'd like to know, with your apparent depth of knowledge on the subject, what you consider the safest pistol presently available for concealed carry is. Do you think de-cocking levers further confuse procedures? What about a design like the H&K P7 which automatically de-noodles when you let go of the grip? Have you ever encountered a P7?






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Offline Gman

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2012, 07:26:29 PM »
You're right Gsholz, when it comes to all the various firearms and weapons out there, it is a pretty small percentage that have de cockers.  It's just in the realm of combat pistols a significant percentage of them do, but overall when counting everything else, it's not that many I suppose.

NRShida, my shop back in 2004 or so imported 100 completely new in the box HK P7 squeeze cockers with the European heel magazine release.  I bought two of them, I shoot one, and kept the other for kicks in new in the box condition.  These are fixed barrel pistols as you know, and therefore very VERY accurate and consistent for their size and bbl length.  Also, as you've stated, VERY safe to carry in any way, and just safe in general as the striker/hammer/thingy cannot impact a round without that front part of the pistol grip being squeezed very directly and consciously.  Along with a double action pistol with a safety, say like an HK USP with the hammer down AND on safety with the safety switch, I can't really think of anything safer in terms of automatic pistols.  One thing about the HK p7, at least the single stack ones I have - they get hotter than a frying pan after even 50 rounds of rapid fire.  If you use one on a shooting course or for a day of heavy shooting, wear gloves or prepare to have some new burn marks to brag about.

A lot of guys have safety jitters over single action pistols when it comes to carrying them with the pistol in battery, as in hammer back safety on, but statically they are just as unlikely to have a mechanical failure-discharge as say an internal striker Glock...it just "looks" less safe I guess with that hammer back or something, and gets into the head a little is the only explanation I have for why this occurs.

As for that question of "safest" CCW pistol, it's a really tough call, and down to the user.  I'd prefer to look at it as more of a "the safest or best shooter" as opposed to the "safest or best pistol" when it comes to this.  Obviously there are some types that are better suited to CCW in terms of avoiding accidents, but as for the decocker issue, it's just another design or feature that can be learned/trained with like any other.  The important thing is consistency once these skills and methods are learned so far as safety is concerned.  So, is a small frame short barrel revolver any safer than say a small DA/SA Sig pistol, like the Sig239 for example?  Well, for me, no, not really, but for a brand new shooter that is just beginning to learn and build a skill set, then I would answer "it depends".  If it is a really switched on person who takes to the training like a duck to water, it's different than a 55 year old grandmother who just got robbed and is deciding to learn how to carry the small revolver she just bought.  In her case, obviously yes, a simple revolver will statistically be less likely to be involved in a accidental discharge, as there is less for her to learn and remember regarding the training of its use. However, the bottom line of the 4 basic rules still apply, and so long as they are always followed, it shouldn't be an issue.  Now, obviously different pistols lend themselves better to different carry methods, for example in the pocket, inside the pants waistband, in a carry pouch, shoulder holster (vomit), ankle holster, etc.  There are lots of issues than can be argued, discussed, and explored regarding hammer less designs for in the pocket, non-single action for more perceived "safety" for inside the pants (like I said before, mainly a mental issue), etc.  There is no right or wrong answer for a lot of these issues, as like I said, I believe that it comes down to the individual users skills, and their ability to consistently consider, use, and improve them.

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2012, 07:46:26 PM »
:rolleyes: Crikey Tank-Ace, does this pass for logic in your circles?
The argument was essentially that if you didn't need to depress the glock's trigger to remove th slide, the man would not have been shot in the face.

It took the form of something along the lines of "if the glock had a safer design...."


The glock is a perfectly safe pistol when properly handled. So saying glock should have made a safer weapon is putting personal safety onto the shoulders of gun manufacturers. In other words, you shouldn't have to check the chamber for it to be safe.

No matter how you argue it, it all comes down to the fact that the man pointed the gun at his face when he didn't difinitivly know it to be safe (we know this, because if he had checked the weapon, he would have seen that it had a round chambered).
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline coombz

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2012, 07:53:10 PM »
The argument was essentially that if you didn't need to depress the glock's trigger to remove th slide, the man would not have been shot in the face.

It took the form of something along the lines of "if the glock had a safer design...."


Let's not change the subject here. What shida actually said was that the design seems to be unintelligent, not that it is unsafe, or that the man would not have shot himself in the face. You hilariously decided to take that and turn it into:

Arguing that glock's design is poor is tantamount to saying its fine to point the gun at your face when you disassemble it.

Let's all just take a moment to laugh at you some more.

 :rofl

I don't want to presume to speak for shida, but my reading and understanding of the thread (probably superior to yours because I am at least passably literate and don't have retarded genes) was that he was commenting solely on the pros and cons of the design of the gun, and not making a judgement on the situation of the idiot who shot himself
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 07:57:56 PM by coombz »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2012, 01:06:27 AM »
Gman, I am encouraged that someone with your knowledge and experience thinks the P7 was a sound design from the safety features perspective. I'm surprised this solution didn't become more popular. The heating is due to the gas delayed blowback, I suppose they thought the German police wouldn't be using 50 rounds rapid while on duty  :rofl  

Many thanks for sharing your experience, there is a potentially practical application for my questions.


Tank-Ace, I believe the man in question shot himself in the hand not the face. I hope you do not take this as disrespectful, but I have several times in this thread tried to make my point which very specifically pertains to design, as Mr. Coombz says. If you are unwilling to make the effort to carefully read and comprehend what I am saying but instead type knee-jerk responses to a stimulus you think you are receiving then I fail to see how trying to discuss this further with you would be productive.


Hello Mr. Coombz, how's the rash?  :old:


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Offline Flench

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2012, 01:28:58 AM »
Just depends on how you was raised and what you did with it . When I was growning up my father( he was 82 airborn) had a team of hunters of 30 to 60 people running dogs every year and we had only one to get hurt the hole time . Most of the guys was from Vietnam anyway so these guys had training ,anyways one night I had a few guys with me spotlighting and I hit a ditch with my truck pretty hard to get through it and his rifle went off (30-06) and he had the gun pointing upwards  . the round hit him in the upper right arm . Boy he lost allot of blood and was lucky as all get out but did not lose his arm being the gun was not a few inch's away . Its easier to get your rifle out the window with the gun pointing up but after that happen I made every one start pointing them down . Now this was back in my outlaw days and would not put up with stuff like that now . Like in my trap club . If you walk out to your station or live it and your gun is  not breached it's a $50 fine .Main thing is training and do a very lot of shooting . Five thing's to learn is :Be Properly Trained
Properly Licensed
Properly Educated
Properly Equipped
And Properly Insured
And listen, you can go it alone and get yourself trained, licensed, educated, equipped, and insured...but it's best to learn from someone that's been there and done that .

Hope this helps
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 01:33:25 AM by Flench »
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Gun Accidents.....how safe are you? really?
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2012, 04:01:36 AM »
Gun safety is one area where your thinking should be quite "rigid". The Glock range of pistols is used by the armies and/or police forces of 47 countries, including the USA, UK, and even Russia. Its safety features is one of its biggest selling points. To say that it is unsafe or "unintelligent, from the design point of view" is an inept characterization made from a position of ignorance.
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