Gun sales today...pretty amazing...

[Guppy35]

Sorry Guppo, your writings are not based on my logic or what I suggested. I see it as another attempt to degrade our second amendment rights. Further, your imaginings seem strange and desperate to me. For that i feel sorry that you weren't instilled with the proper values and experiences when growing up.  :hand

Infidelz

I'm not the one paranoid that "they" are coming to get the guns.  I don't see black helicopters.  Thankfully I was raised to not overreact to things.  And thankfully I've raised my kids the same way

[Guppy35]

Widewing you are using the good old days argument.  I'm 52.  They were shooting people on TV and in the movies just as much then.  They just didn't show us the big holes guns made in people.

You talk about the influence on unstable kids.  Look at it this way.  If a kid on the edge sees dad's bolt action and a box of shells it would influence his thinking in one way.  Seeing dad's AR-15 and a stack of loaded 30 round magazines would influence his thinking in another. 

A bit like pong Vs Halo.

How is looking at the influence of one ok and the other not ok?

If that kid when he went over the edge didn't have access to mom's AR and was limited to a bolt action long gun, would as many children died?  Kinda doubt it as he'd have been much more limited in the rounds he could have put out.  Having to work the bolt,and reload individual shells would have slowed him at the door and allowed those inside time to call 911.  Instead he's able to blow through the door and unload on those kids much faster.

Why is talking about that untouchable?

[SmokinLoon]

Widewing you are using the good old days argument.  I'm 52.  They were shooting people on TV and in the movies just as much then.  They just didn't show us the big holes guns made in people.

You talk about the influence on unstable kids.  Look at it this way.  If a kid on the edge sees dad's bolt action and a box of shells it would influence his thinking in one way.  Seeing dad's AR-15 and a stack of loaded 30 round magazines would influence his thinking in another. 

A bit like pong Vs Halo.

How is looking at the influence of one ok and the other not ok?

If that kid when he went over the edge didn't have access to mom's AR and was limited to a bolt action long gun, would as many children died?  Kinda doubt it as he'd have been much more limited in the rounds he could have put out.  Having to work the bolt,and reload individual shells would have slowed him at the door and allowed those inside time to call 911.  Instead he's able to blow through the door and unload on those kids much faster.

Why is talking about that untouchable?

Speculation is just that.  Ultimately it is about society, not the guns.  The minute people say we do not need a Corvette to drive to work so they should be outlawed is the moment I see idiocy taking over.  If this psycho in CT would not have access to an AR15 and 30rd mags he still would have had 2 handguns and 15 rounds a piece in them.  If he would have been restricted to 10 rd magazines he would have ad at 30 round to use before reloading. If semi-autos would have been banned he would have brought revolvers, lever-actions, and pump shotguns.  If they would have been banned then he would have brought cans of gas, poured the gas on the kids and lit them on fire.  McVeigh fertilizer bomb, etc, etc, on and on. The guy was a psycho, he was going to kill any way he could. If the principle would have been armed, or any one of those teachers that the killer attacked was armed, we'd be hearing a far different story. Unfortunately, the artificial cleansing and purification of schools and the public in general have made this not possible. Bolt gun or semi-auto, one death is too many. Start with the banning high capacity mags, then it will be semi-auto rifles, and eventually we'll ban the bolt guns too.  Give an inch and they will take 10 yards. Count on it. 

Question for anyone: If I volunteered to work security at a school, armed, but in a low key manner (business casual w/ concealed handgun) enough that only the teachers and staff know who I am, how would that sit? I've got 6 years of deputy/PD duty under my belt (includes lots of tactical/active shooter training), earned a college degree to be a teacher, am married and father of a 10yo and 7yo, etc, etc, plus I know how tom interact with the public from many angles. How would that sit with those of you who have heard of this option? Say I was one of 8 adults that volunteered for this duty and all of us had at least some minimal training (military, LEO, or professional training).  How would this suffice?

The baddies will always try and do bad, their tools will change as need be.  Limiting magazines capacity will not stop gun violence.  Limiting the cosmetic features on certain firearms will not stop gun violence.  Banning a certain type of firearms will not stop violence. Changing society to be more responsible and accountable for their actions or lack of actions will.  We in the USA have gotten very soft, we've become far too complacent with allowing substandard everything in the name of "feeling good" instead of taking an issue head on and forcing people to see reality. The reality is that firearms are an inanimate object. So are forks and spoons. So are automobiles. So are knives.  Where do we draw the line and stop the madness? Or, do we keep allowing a "feel good" law or policy to go in to effect with no direct and positive results?  I remind everyone that the Columbine killers did all their damage during the "Assault Weapons Ban", and they obtained their guns illegally, and they used propane bombs (that failed), etc, etc. Laws do not stop the bad guys.           

[Infidelz]

I'm not the one paranoid that "they" are coming to get the guns.  I don't see black helicopters.  Thankfully I was raised to not overreact to things.  And thankfully I've raised my kids the same way

No need for name calling, I didn't call you naive. FYI they are using UAV's these day and you can't see em. Sad that you don't recognize the warning signs, you strike me as a nice fellow that just doesn't have full SA.

and again Not everyone wants long guns (but they have a right to them) and not everyone should have them (only those permitted by law). So far it seems the progressives and Chinese Government are in violent agreement. Need to get rid of the guns. It will make it easier when they foreclose on us.
http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/china-calls-for-no-delay-on-gun-controls-in-u-s/

The second amendment is all about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So please if you don't have time to get the SA stay thankful and don't tell the rest of us what we need.

[Infidelz]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/deport-british-citizen-piers-morgan-attacking-2nd-amendment/prfh5zHD

Look its a petition to oust that nice Peirs Morgan fellow from our shores. Wouldn't be a bad start especially this haughty SOB.

[Puma44]

Speculation is just that.  Ultimately it is about society, not the guns.  The minute people say we do not need a Corvette to drive to work so they should be outlawed is the moment I see idiocy taking over.  If this psycho in CT would not have access to an AR15 and 30rd mags he still would have had 2 handguns and 15 rounds a piece in them.  If he would have been restricted to 10 rd magazines he would have ad at 30 round to use before reloading. If semi-autos would have been banned he would have brought revolvers, lever-actions, and pump shotguns.  If they would have been banned then he would have brought cans of gas, poured the gas on the kids and lit them on fire.  McVeigh fertilizer bomb, etc, etc, on and on. The guy was a psycho, he was going to kill any way he could. If the principle would have been armed, or any one of those teachers that the killer attacked was armed, we'd be hearing a far different story. Unfortunately, the artificial cleansing and purification of schools and the public in general have made this not possible. Bolt gun or semi-auto, one death is too many. Start with the banning high capacity mags, then it will be semi-auto rifles, and eventually we'll ban the bolt guns too.  Give an inch and they will take 10 yards. Count on it. 

Question for anyone: If I volunteered to work security at a school, armed, but in a low key manner (business casual w/ concealed handgun) enough that only the teachers and staff know who I am, how would that sit? I've got 6 years of deputy/PD duty under my belt (includes lots of tactical/active shooter training), earned a college degree to be a teacher, am married and father of a 10yo and 7yo, etc, etc, plus I know how tom interact with the public from many angles. How would that sit with those of you who have heard of this option? Say I was one of 8 adults that volunteered for this duty and all of us had at least some minimal training (military, LEO, or professional training).  How would this suffice?

The baddies will always try and do bad, their tools will change as need be.  Limiting magazines capacity will not stop gun violence.  Limiting the cosmetic features on certain firearms will not stop gun violence.  Banning a certain type of firearms will not stop violence. Changing society to be more responsible and accountable for their actions or lack of actions will.  We in the USA have gotten very soft, we've become far too complacent with allowing substandard everything in the name of "feeling good" instead of taking an issue head on and forcing people to see reality. The reality is that firearms are an inanimate object. So are forks and spoons. So are automobiles. So are knives.  Where do we draw the line and stop the madness? Or, do we keep allowing a "feel good" law or policy to go in to effect with no direct and positive results?  I remind everyone that the Columbine killers did all their damage during the "Assault Weapons Ban", and they obtained their guns illegally, and they used propane bombs (that failed), etc, etc. Laws do not stop the bad guys.           

Well spoken, sir!  That is exactly what the issue is; mental health decay and the resulting violence against the innocent.   Theses psychos never seem to go after police stations, gun shops, or anywhere there are people who can defend themselves.  Guns of any type have nothing to do with it.  The underlying reason for gun control is to disarm citizens and turn them into slaves.

[RTHolmes]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/deport-british-citizen-piers-morgan-attacking-2nd-amendment/prfh5zHD

Look its a petition to oust that nice Peirs Morgan fellow from our shores. Wouldn't be a bad start especially this haughty SOB.

so, just to be clear: you consider the 2nd Amendment absolutely sacrosanct, but you're quite happy to ignore or repeal the 1st Amendment?


edit: btw everyone in the UK thinks Piers is a **** too

[Guppy35]

Speculation is just that.  Ultimately it is about society, not the guns.  The minute people say we do not need a Corvette to drive to work so they should be outlawed is the moment I see idiocy taking over.  If this psycho in CT would not have access to an AR15 and 30rd mags he still would have had 2 handguns and 15 rounds a piece in them.  If he would have been restricted to 10 rd magazines he would have ad at 30 round to use before reloading. If semi-autos would have been banned he would have brought revolvers, lever-actions, and pump shotguns.  If they would have been banned then he would have brought cans of gas, poured the gas on the kids and lit them on fire.  McVeigh fertilizer bomb, etc, etc, on and on. The guy was a psycho, he was going to kill any way he could. If the principle would have been armed, or any one of those teachers that the killer attacked was armed, we'd be hearing a far different story. Unfortunately, the artificial cleansing and purification of schools and the public in general have made this not possible. Bolt gun or semi-auto, one death is too many. Start with the banning high capacity mags, then it will be semi-auto rifles, and eventually we'll ban the bolt guns too.  Give an inch and they will take 10 yards. Count on it. 

Question for anyone: If I volunteered to work security at a school, armed, but in a low key manner (business casual w/ concealed handgun) enough that only the teachers and staff know who I am, how would that sit? I've got 6 years of deputy/PD duty under my belt (includes lots of tactical/active shooter training), earned a college degree to be a teacher, am married and father of a 10yo and 7yo, etc, etc, plus I know how tom interact with the public from many angles. How would that sit with those of you who have heard of this option? Say I was one of 8 adults that volunteered for this duty and all of us had at least some minimal training (military, LEO, or professional training).  How would this suffice?

The baddies will always try and do bad, their tools will change as need be.  Limiting magazines capacity will not stop gun violence.  Limiting the cosmetic features on certain firearms will not stop gun violence.  Banning a certain type of firearms will not stop violence. Changing society to be more responsible and accountable for their actions or lack of actions will.  We in the USA have gotten very soft, we've become far too complacent with allowing substandard everything in the name of "feeling good" instead of taking an issue head on and forcing people to see reality. The reality is that firearms are an inanimate object. So are forks and spoons. So are automobiles. So are knives.  Where do we draw the line and stop the madness? Or, do we keep allowing a "feel good" law or policy to go in to effect with no direct and positive results?  I remind everyone that the Columbine killers did all their damage during the "Assault Weapons Ban", and they obtained their guns illegally, and they used propane bombs (that failed), etc, etc. Laws do not stop the bad guys.           

So since I'm a responsible driver with an perfect record the last 30+ years I should be able to drive any speed I want and not carry insurance too as I'll never need it.  Why should I have limits on my driving?

My rights are being infringed!

How is that different?

[Infidelz]

so, just to be clear: you consider the 2nd Amendm"ent absolutely sacrosanct, but you're quite happy to ignore or repeal the 1st Amendment?


edit: btw everyone in the UK thinks Piers is a **** too

"Deport British Citizen Piers Morgan for Attacking 2nd Amendment
British Citizen and CNN television host Piers Morgan is engaged in a hostile attack against the U.S. Constitution by targeting the Second Amendment. We demand that Mr. Morgan be deported immediately for his effort to undermine the Bill of Rights and for exploiting his position as a national network television host to stage attacks against the rights of American citizens."

YUP. No issues on this one. Mr. Morgan is an alien agitator here advocating the overthrow of our constitution. I know the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to aliens - don't believe the first was intended to either.

[Guppy35]

Well spoken, sir!  That is exactly what the issue is; mental health decay and the resulting violence against the innocent.   Theses psychos never seem to go after police stations, gun shops, or anywhere there are people who can defend themselves.  Guns of any type have nothing to do with it.  The underlying reason for gun control is to disarm citizens and turn them into slaves.

So who are these people that are decaying?  Are you suggesting parents aren't doing their jobs anymore?  Each generation is just that much lousier at raising their kids?  I don't but that at all.  Who here that has kids now doesn't work at their parenting as hard as their parents did?  That's a garbage excuse.

I'm very proud of how I raised my kids.  Having been involved in their lives via school etc, I also saw how hard the other parents were working too.  I spent most of my adult life working with troubled teens.  It's a very small percentage of all the kids out there.

Are you a lousy parent?  If so, how come?  Why did you slack off and ruin your kids?

[Dadsguns]

What is needed is to enforce accross the nation the laws in place now... there are states that require no reporting of mental illness to get a gun.. stop allowing states to pick and choose which laws they want to enforce... standardize it and keep guns out of the hands of these nuts...oops "troubled teens".. they are only nuts after they kill their mother and elementary kids.....

[Puma44]

So who are these people that are decaying?  Are you suggesting parents aren't doing their jobs anymore?  Each generation is just that much lousier at raising their kids?  I don't but that at all.  Who here that has kids now doesn't work at their parenting as hard as their parents did?  That's a garbage excuse.

I'm very proud of how I raised my kids.  Having been involved in their lives via school etc, I also saw how hard the other parents were working too.  I spent most of my adult life working with troubled teens.  It's a very small percentage of all the kids out there.

Are you a lousy parent?  If so, how come?  Why did you slack off and ruin your kids?

You need to back off and get over yourself.  Your guilt riddled comment completely misses the point and steers it off in another direction.

[Tank-Ace]

So since I'm a responsible driver with an perfect record the last 30+ years I should be able to drive any speed I want and not carry insurance too as I'll never need it.  Why should I have limits on my driving?

My rights are being infringed!

How is that different?

Driving above the speed limit is unsafe, even if the road is perfectly strait and your car can handle the speed, because other cars are going slower, and other drivers are typically borderline retarded. The speed limit is not just for the safety of others, but for your own personal safety as well.

However, even owning a fully operational and combat-loaded tank is not dangerous in and of itself. It posses a potential risk if you go nuts, or if someone that is already nuts/very stupid steals it. But it doesn't pose a risk just by being in your driveway.


Whether or not people should have access to assult weapons is besides the point. The point is that banning assult weapons will do little to reduce the carnage. Only banning all guns would do anything significant toward reducing the number of shootings, and thats an unacceptable step, especially considering that there are other ways to reduce deaths.

[TonyJoey]

Somehow many seem to overlook the fact that the 300 million guns in circulation may contribute to our "violent culture". All facets of gun violence need to be looked at; guns shouldn't be immune.

[Stellaris]

As I said in my earlier post, weapons are my business.  I'm comfy with them.  Being Canadian I take no position on the US gun control issue.  However I will say, based on my experience in CQB, the argument that if everybody carried guns mass killings wouldn't happen is one that can only be advanced by someone utterly clueless about the realities of combat.

Say you're in the library, reading up on your favourite plane.  Of course you've got your legal concealed carry sidearm on you.  POP POP POP.  You look up.  Some guy is there with an automatic, capping rounds at someone you can't see.  You draw with one well-practiced movement, take aim and... is this guy the killer?  Or is he an armed citizen like you, shooting at the killer?  Better not choose wrong.

And then POP POP POP, some else is shooting at you, because you've got a gun out and she ain't waiting to figure out who's who.  So now you better shoot back.  Only you CAN'T shoot back because lethal stress has shut down your fine motor skills so hard you can't find the trigger, even if you weren't too tunnel-visioned to get a sight picture.  And that's probably a good thing, because if you could fire you WOULD fire, and you wouldn't be thinking to scan the background to see the school group trying to hide under desks behind the one shooting at you.

And some of you are thinking right now "Not me, I'm good.  I'd be able to aim, to fire, to hit the target and not the kids." but the fact is you didn't even think of these things as you read this scenario until I brought them up.  You're deluding yourself if you think you're going to be that switched on with live rounds coming at your face when you can't even do it when reading some text on your screen.  To quote LCol Dave Grossman, who literally wrote the book on human performance under lethal stress.  "You will not rise to the occasion, you will sink to the level of your training."  Let us be clear on what "training" means.  I don't care how many years you've managed to kill the deer and not your buddy - if your training didn't involve incoming simunition and a thousand target-discrimination rounds a day, it was inadequate.  If you weren't in the kill-house in the last 14 days,  you're stale.  That's the level that SWAT teams and SF train to, and even they kill the wrong people sometimes.  Still think you're so switched on you can get accurate rounds downrange in this situation?  Then you already know why you just killed an innocent.  What, surprised?  The girl you just shot wasn't the killer, she's the one who thought YOU were the killer.  You didn't forget that, did you McLane?  She's the armed teacher protecting her students behind her, didn't you pull that out of your combat asessment?  Do you even know what a combat assessment is?  

So that's you in a no-warning firefight.  Now thank about fifty other concealed-carry heroes in the library with you.  Now think about this going down in a dark movie theatre, like in Colorado last July.

Yeah.