Author Topic: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...  (Read 7123 times)

Offline bustr

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #285 on: December 26, 2012, 02:59:40 PM »
The trained and elite in the world are but a fraction of the total population.

This has been true since the dawn of soldiering and trained men at arms. The rest of us unwashed, untrained, incompentent masses have always done the best we can protecting our lives with whatever was at hand. And so the trained since the dawn of their profession have looked askance at the rest of us for our clumsy and inferior lack of training. There are not and never will be enough of the trained to protect the other 98% of the population. For the most part the trained protect governements and the elite who have the funds to pay for the professional. The U.S. is a rare exception that the professionals in our armed forces protect "We the People" rather than a government or a crown based institution.

Untill the day arrives that magicly our violent tendacies leave us and pigs fly over rainbows. The 98% of the untrained masses will continue to protect their own lives, family and property as best they can regardless of the derision from trained professionals. After all, when violence happens to the majority of us unwashed masses, there is no one on hand but ourselves to save our own lives regardelss of how inept we are at the process. Or should we 98% just roll over and commit suicide in the face of our lack of skill becasue a professional has judged us incompitent?

The cartoon anti-hero "Stellaris" would probably look at us untrained unwashed masses as mud under her boot also. Interesting choice of forum ID's in a kiddy shootemup cartoon game forum. Stellaris could be described at some times as a professional soldier girl working out some serious issues and grudges.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellaris
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #286 on: December 26, 2012, 05:36:28 PM »
@widewing.  Point blank range, only three hits, two from behind, none center of mass.   Maybe this meets your standard, but I'd rather not have this level of marksman escalating holdups to shootouts.  He stopped the robbery.  Great.  He didn't make anyone safer, which is my point.

Do you know what point blank range is? Technically?

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #287 on: December 26, 2012, 07:30:10 PM »
Ardy, I couldn't agree with you more....

I like going to the range because I enjoy shooting for recreation.  However, I'd rather not think about having to defend myself. Ever.

 

The founders always amaze me as to how relevant their words remain

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."
         --- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors
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Offline dunnrite

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #288 on: December 26, 2012, 07:34:03 PM »
Here is a good, informative (and long) read on the subject.  I hope some of you read it.

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/
Amazing you could actually recruit that much suck into one squad.
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Offline Buzzard7

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #289 on: December 26, 2012, 07:37:21 PM »
I think it boils down to those of us that are prone to panic not being able to handle your so called lethal stress. I have seen well trained military men panic at the first sound of rounds whizzing overhead.

Offline mtnman

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #290 on: December 26, 2012, 08:37:36 PM »
Here is a good, informative (and long) read on the subject.  I hope some of you read it.

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/

Wow, thanks for posting!

Nice to see a well-argued view.  I'll be sharing it.
MtnMan

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Offline Stellaris

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #291 on: December 26, 2012, 10:34:52 PM »
@buzzard.  Absolutely correct, panic (what LCol Grossman calls condition black) shuts down your ability to function effectively in a firefight, and even well trained troops are subject to it.  Even condition yellow, which is where fear arousal is actually helping you, - shuts down fine motor skills, induces tunnel vision and does other things that your training needs to accommodate.

@bustr.  I'm not deriding anyone.  By all means, defend yourself as you see fit against whatever threats you feel are present in your life.  I'm simply stating that, just as guns don't kill people, guns don't keep people safe.  Only someone who is properly trained can do this, and as it turns out, the required level of training is far higher than anyone imagined until quite recently.  There is only one writer with two books on the US Army's required reading list, and that is LCol Dave Grossman, whose research into the psychology and physiology of combat uncovered how bad a job armies (and everyone else) were actually doing at training soldiers (and police) for combat.  

Think about that.  You would think that with dozens of wars over generations of time, with millions of combat veterans, armies would have had this nailed.  Nope.  They didn't have a clue.  Training has been radically changed in the last decade or so in response, and it has gotten MUCH more intense.  As a soldier, I've lived through that change.  I've been fortunate enough to meet LCol Grossman, and to be trained by and beside some of the people who've been central to this change.  Before that, I thought I was good.  After all I was a twenty-year infantry soldier, qualified to marksman level every year for that whole time, had a shelf full of trophies besides.  Nope.  I wasn't good, not even close, because range shoots, and blank fire exercises, and even live-fire exercises do not actually produce skills which work well in real close combat.  The drills I learned were likely to fail under lethal stress, because they weren't built around the way people function when someone is trying to kill them.  And >I< was likely to fail under lethal stress, because my training didn't expose me to it in a meaningful way.  I'm still not good, not even close, because "good" requires full time dedication to the skillset, and I'm a reservist who fights with a radio.  I do now know what "good" looks like.  

It does not look like an armed schoolteacher.  

This is my point.

@everyone else  I'm not saying nobody should have firearms.  Hunt, shoot clays, shoot targets, hang 'em on your wall, accessorize 'em, carry 'em everywhere you go if that's what you like doing.  I am saying that the American violence problem is not guns, and the solution is not guns.  The problem isn't guns because the problem is violence.  The solution isn't guns because the average armed citizen isn't trained to function under lethal stress.   If you want to understand this check killology.com, which is LCol Grossman's website.  He can explain this way better than I.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 10:54:18 PM by Stellaris »

Offline Maverick

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #292 on: December 27, 2012, 11:49:58 AM »
It does not look like an armed schoolteacher.  

Sandy hook has already shown us what an unarmed school teacher looks like. Their funerals were several days later because the only option they had that day was to die valiantly but futilely with their students.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #293 on: December 27, 2012, 12:10:40 PM »
Sandy hook has already shown us what an unarmed school teacher looks like. Their funerals were several days later because the only option they had that day was to die valiantly but futilely with their students.

then you have the guy who was armed when he answered a knock on his door and was shot by police.

you will always find situations where you can say, if only......  but that doesnt help after the fact.  if we armed the teachers that will only last until a teachers gets mad for whatever reason and starts shooting, but that has never happened before, right?

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2010/feb/10/two-shot-at-inskip-school-teacher-being-held-on/
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/03/2-dead-in-shooting-at-fla-high-school-/1


midway
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Offline Maverick

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #294 on: December 27, 2012, 01:04:05 PM »
Guncrasher if you will only be happy with a 100% success on any option you will be forever frustrated in this life. The folks in Sandy Hook had a zero option available to them. Your choice as to which one you would like to have.
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Offline Stellaris

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #295 on: December 27, 2012, 01:17:56 PM »
@Maverick - armed schoolteachers at Sandy Hook would look exactly like the unarmed schoolteachers unless they were trained properly.   Look at the criminals in widewing's video - they panic so hard they don't even think to return fire.  We cheer at this, because they're the bad guys.  We imagine the law abiding armed citizen as the good guy.  But the good guy will panic just as badly if someone else opens fire, unless - and I'm seriously amazed I have to sell the concept of tough, realistic, high stress training to this audience - unless they are trained to deal with lethal stress.

And while they were standing around armed with a school-issued sidearm and a false sense of security, many more would end up looking like the dad who accidentally shot his son.  I don't want my children in that guy's classroom, I'll take my chances with the random maniac.  Especially, as midway points out, that inevitably a few of these teachers would end up looking like the perpetrator.






Offline guncrasher

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #296 on: December 27, 2012, 01:20:12 PM »
Guncrasher if you will only be happy with a 100% success on any option you will be forever frustrated in this life. The folks in Sandy Hook had a zero option available to them. Your choice as to which one you would like to have.

well look at it this way.  if we were to arm every single teacher in the schools how many more shootings by teacher are we gonna have?  the answer is that there isnt really a right answer one way or another.  we can only speculate that the teacher will do the right thing.  but think about it, lots of teacher get arrested every year for sex abuse of student, but now the kids know that teachers are armed, what will that tell you?

not trying to indict every teacher as the great majority are good teachers, but arent we going to make one problem worst while trying to solve another?


midway
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #297 on: December 27, 2012, 01:50:42 PM »
@buzzard.  Absolutely correct, panic (what LCol Grossman calls condition black) shuts down your ability to function effectively in a firefight, and even well trained troops are subject to it.  Even condition yellow, which is where fear arousal is actually helping you, - shuts down fine motor skills, induces tunnel vision and does other things that your training needs to accommodate.

@bustr.  I'm not deriding anyone.  By all means, defend yourself as you see fit against whatever threats you feel are present in your life.  I'm simply stating that, just as guns don't kill people, guns don't keep people safe.  Only someone who is properly trained can do this, and as it turns out, the required level of training is far higher than anyone imagined until quite recently.  There is only one writer with two books on the US Army's required reading list, and that is LCol Dave Grossman, whose research into the psychology and physiology of combat uncovered how bad a job armies (and everyone else) were actually doing at training soldiers (and police) for combat.  

Think about that.  You would think that with dozens of wars over generations of time, with millions of combat veterans, armies would have had this nailed.  Nope.  They didn't have a clue.  Training has been radically changed in the last decade or so in response, and it has gotten MUCH more intense.  As a soldier, I've lived through that change.  I've been fortunate enough to meet LCol Grossman, and to be trained by and beside some of the people who've been central to this change.  Before that, I thought I was good.  After all I was a twenty-year infantry soldier, qualified to marksman level every year for that whole time, had a shelf full of trophies besides.  Nope.  I wasn't good, not even close, because range shoots, and blank fire exercises, and even live-fire exercises do not actually produce skills which work well in real close combat.  The drills I learned were likely to fail under lethal stress, because they weren't built around the way people function when someone is trying to kill them.  And >I< was likely to fail under lethal stress, because my training didn't expose me to it in a meaningful way.  I'm still not good, not even close, because "good" requires full time dedication to the skillset, and I'm a reservist who fights with a radio.  I do now know what "good" looks like.  

It does not look like an armed schoolteacher.  

This is my point.

@everyone else  I'm not saying nobody should have firearms.  Hunt, shoot clays, shoot targets, hang 'em on your wall, accessorize 'em, carry 'em everywhere you go if that's what you like doing.  I am saying that the American violence problem is not guns, and the solution is not guns.  The problem isn't guns because the problem is violence.  The solution isn't guns because the average armed citizen isn't trained to function under lethal stress.   If you want to understand this check killology.com, which is LCol Grossman's website.  He can explain this way better than I.


It doesnt necessarily not look like an armed school teacher either. Different people will act differently regardless of training. Hell we even have trained police who sometimes seem to manage to hit everyone and everything around them but the perp they are shooting at.

 Fact of the matter is nobody knows for sure until put to the test. Yes there are some even trained people who shut down. Likewise there are also untrained people who dont shut down and indeed even thrive and in fact do extra ordinary heroic things under extra ordinary circumstances. We see and read about them on the news all the time.

I contend you can have armed teacher. Those teachers can and should also be trained. And inasmuch as soldiers and police are trained. there is no logical reason why teachers cant nor definitive evidence that if trained they would perform any less effectively then say. Even the police.

This is one of the things that a "well regulated(trained and practiced) militia" is supposed to be about and for. And what the founders wanted.
The last thing they wanted was for arms to be for and used by the government alone.
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For those who wish to know
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #298 on: December 27, 2012, 01:53:58 PM »
well look at it this way.  if we were to arm every single teacher in the schools how many more shootings by teacher are we gonna have?  the answer is that there isnt really a right answer one way or another.  we can only speculate that the teacher will do the right thing.  but think about it, lots of teacher get arrested every year for sex abuse of student, but now the kids know that teachers are armed, what will that tell you?

not trying to indict every teacher as the great majority are good teachers, but arent we going to make one problem worst while trying to solve another?


midway

I don't think there will be a requirement for teachers to arm. I believe there is a movement to allow those who want to be armed to be able to do so.  I'd rather not force anyone to have a firearm.  Those who want to be armed and are willing to learn and maintain the responsibility... I say go for it. 
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Gun sales today...pretty amazing...
« Reply #299 on: December 27, 2012, 02:01:02 PM »
well look at it this way.  if we were to arm every single teacher in the schools how many more shootings by teacher are we gonna have?  the answer is that there isnt really a right answer one way or another.  we can only speculate that the teacher will do the right thing.  but think about it, lots of teacher get arrested every year for sex abuse of student, but now the kids know that teachers are armed, what will that tell you?

not trying to indict every teacher as the great majority are good teachers, but arent we going to make one problem worst while trying to solve another?


midway

they just did a story on this on CNN
Utah has been doing it for over 10 years now and teachers havent been involved in any shootings yet.
Now 200 more are going to receive training.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty