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Author Topic: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!  (Read 9112 times)

Offline skribetm

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HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« on: December 28, 2012, 04:06:50 PM »
Or did they?

Quote
Several nations, including Finland, Belgium, Britain and the Netherlands, ordered the Buffalo to bolster their struggling air arms, but of all the users, only the Finns seemed to find their Buffalos effective, flying them in combat with excellent results.[2] During the Continuation War of 1941–1944, the B-239's (a de-navalized F2A-1) operated by the Finnish Air Force proved capable of engaging and destroying most types of Soviet fighter aircraft operating against Finland at that time, achieving, in the first phase of that conflict, a kill-ratio of 32:1 (32 Soviet aircraft shot down for every B-239 lost) and producing 36 Buffalo "aces".[4]

also;

Quote
The top-scoring Buffalo pilot was Hans Wind, with 39 kills in B-239s.[53] Wind scored 26 of his kills while flying aircraft BW-393, while Eino Luukkanen scored seven more in the same aircraft. After evaluation of claims against Soviet actual losses, aircraft No. BW-364 was credited with 42½ kills in total by all pilots operating it, possibly making it the highest-scoring fighter airframe in the history of air warfare. The top scoring Finnish ace, Ilmari Juutilainen, scored 34 of his 94½ kills in B-239s, including 28 in BW-364.[54]

in comparison:

Quote
U.S. Navy and Marine F6F pilots flew 66,530 combat sorties and claimed 5,163 kills (56% of all U.S. Navy/Marine air victories of the war) at a recorded cost of 270 Hellcats in aerial combat (an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 19:1 based on claimed but not confirmed kills).[39]

ALL HAILZ ZEE FINNZ & BUFFALOEZ!  :salute

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Offline --)SF----

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2012, 04:41:29 PM »
HTC undermodelled the La7  ¡
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Offline JOACH1M

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2012, 04:56:23 PM »
Quote from: skribetm on December 28, 2012, 04:06:50 PM
Or did they?

also;

in comparison:

ALL HAILZ ZEE FINNZ & BUFFALOEZ!  :salute

(Image removed from quote.)
The Brewster shot down I-15's and I-16's.
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2012, 05:16:26 PM »
To say it was "light" is a huge understatement.


If HTC ever add's the american versions,you will see how much they really were pigs. But they also had a TON of equipment in them the finnish brewster did not.

lack of a life raft, no pilot armor "or very little" arrester gear removed, and lots of other things here and there.
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Offline icepac

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2012, 05:39:53 PM »
I will guess that the Finns are simply better at getting the most out of any vehicle or gun.
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Offline dirtdart

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2012, 06:32:47 PM »
Fight the Brewster on it's terms and you will get you butt kicked.  The only thing I personally doubt is the Brewster's ability to to dive. 
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2012, 07:24:37 PM »
Quote from: JOACH1M on December 28, 2012, 04:56:23 PM
The Brewster shot down I-15's and I-16's.

B-239 shot down quite a varied group of fighters, even a couple of Ju87s were among its victims.


ack-ack
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Offline zarkov

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2012, 08:03:48 PM »
Quote from: JOACH1M on December 28, 2012, 04:56:23 PM
The Brewster shot down I-15's and I-16's.

The Finns used the Brewster as a front-line fighter up until 1943.

That area of the front was considered a side-show by the Soviets but I really doubt the VVS units stationed there were making do with I-15's and I-16's into 1943.
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Offline Eric19

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2012, 09:54:33 PM »
I16s are very formidable opponents even in a brew its hard to get a shot on a I16 if its a good pilot the i16 can almost outturn the brew
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 03:37:18 AM »
Here's a few examples, more exhaustive list in the link.

Date    Squadron  Name                 Plane   Kill(s)         Status after mission

06.02.42 LeLv 24  Ahlstenin, J.        BW-353                  Landing accident; AC repairable; pilot okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24  Ahokas, L.           BW-364  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24  Ahokas, L.           BW-351  1.00 I-16       Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24  Ahokas, L.           BW-351  1.00 DB-3F      Okay
04.05.43 LeLv 24  Ahokas, L.           BW-351  1.00 I-153      Okay
20.05.43 LeLv 24  Ahokas, L.           BW-351  1.00 LaG-5      Okay
23.09.43 LeLv 24  Ahokas, L.           BW-355  2.00 LaGG-3     Okay
25.06.41 LeLv 24  Ahola, L.            BW-388                  0.00 Crashed on takeoff; AC ooc; pilot okay
09.07.41 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 I-153      Okay
17.09.41 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
07.10.41 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 I-16       Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  2.00 MiG-3      Okay
26.10.42 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 I-16       Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 Tomahawk   Okay
23.11.42 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 Pe-2       Okay
10.03.43 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 LaGG-3     Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 LaG-5      Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 Jak-1      Okay
02.05.43 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  0.50 LaGG-3     Okay
04.05.43 LeLv 24  Alho, M.A.           BW-383  1.00 I-153      Okay
05.06.43 KoeL     Alho, M.A.           BW-392                  Crashed testing Humu design; pilot killed
29.01.42 LeLv 24  Alvesalo, U.         BW-389                  Crashed; AC destroyed; pilot badly hurt
06.04.42 LeLv 24  Alvesalo, U.         BW-354  1.00 SB         Okay
08.06.42 LeLv 24  Alvesalo, U.         BW-394  1.00 Hurricane  Force landed after damage in air fight; AC destroyed; pilot okay
25.06.42 LeLv 24  Anttila, K.          BW-381                  Force landed after damage; AC destroyed; pilot okay
29.07.42 LeLv 24  Anttila, K.          BW-379                  Ground loop; AC ooc; pilot okay
04.10.42 LeLv 24  Anttila, K.          BW-356  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
22.02.44 LeLv 24  Anttila, K.          BW-371                  Crashed; AC destroyed; pilot killed
09.03.42 LeLv 24  Avikainen, O.        BW-386  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
14.03.42 LeLv 24  Avikainen, O.        BW-366  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
18.04.42 LeLv 24  Avikainen, O.        BW-384  1.00 LaGG-3     Okay
16.05.43 LeLv 24  Avikainen, O.        BW-383  1.00 LaGG-3     Okay
05.06.43 LeLv 24  Avikainen, O.        BW-370  1.00 Jak-1      Okay
05.06.43 LeLv 24  Avikainen, O.        BW-370  1.00 Pe-2       Okay
17.09.41 LeLv 24  Dahl, J.             BW-393  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
18.08.41 LeLv 24  Elfving, H.          BW-387  0.50 I-153      Okay
26.08.41 LeLv 24  Elfving, H.          BW-370                  Landing accident; AC ooc; pilot okay
07.10.41 LeLv 24  Elfving, H.          BW-394  1.00 I-16       Okay
03.12.41 LeLv 24  Elfving, H.          BW-385                  Shot down by AA; pilot killed
30.06.41 LeLv 24  Ginman, C.           BW-392  1.00 SB-2bis    Okay
27.09.41 LeLv 24  Ginman, C.           BW-392  1.00 I-15bis    Okay
24.04.43 LeLv 24  Halonen, E.          BW-365                  Force landed ; AC repairable; pilot okay
23.09.41 LeLv 24  Heinonen, T.         BW-365  0.50 I-16       Okay
10.01.42 LeLv 24  Heinonen, T.         BW-379  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24  Heinonen, T.         BW-359                  Shot down, pilot parachuted safely
25.10.42 LeLv 24  Heinonen, T.         BW-393  1.00 Hurricane  Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24  Heinonen, T.         BW-373  1.00 Jak-1      Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24  Heinonen, T.         BW-354  1.00 LaG-5      Shot down, pilot killed
17.10.44 LeLv 26  Heleniuksen, O.      BW-367                  Crashed; AC destroyed; pilot okay
23.02.43 LeLv 24  Herrala, H.          BW-368  1.00 I-16       Okay
03.10.44 LeLv 26  Hietala, O.          BW-367  1.00 Ju-87      Okay
01.08.41 LeLv 24  Hovi, M.             BW-389  0.50 I-153      Okay
19.07.41 LeLv 24  Huotari, J.A.A.      BW-353  1.00 I-153      Okay
12.08.41 LeLv 24  Huotari, J.A.A.      BW-353  1.00 I-153      Okay
23.09.41 LeLv 24  Huotari, J.A.A.      BW-353  1.00 I-16       Okay
09.03.42 LeLv 24  Huotari, J.A.A.      BW-380  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
28.03.42 LeLv 24  Huotari, J.A.A.      BW-353  2.00 I-153      Okay
14.08.42 LeLv 24  Huotari, J.A.A.      BW-353  1.00 Hurricane  Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24  Huotari, J.A.A.      BW-352  2.00 I-16       Okay
28.09.43 LeLv 24  Huotari, J.A.A.      BW-355  0.50 LaGG-3     Okay
30.06.41 LeLv 24  Ikonen, S.H.         BW-386  1.00 ARK-3      Okay
17.09.41 LeLv 24  Ikonen, S.H.         BW-386  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
12.08.42 LeLv 24  Ikonen, S.H.         BW-370  1.00 I-16       Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24  Ikonen, S.H.         BW-386  1.00 Spitfire   Okay
07.10.41 LeLv 24  Jarvi, T.T.          BW-393  1.00 I-153      Okay
26.10.41 LeLv 24  Jarvi, T.T.          BW-383  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
06.08.42 LeLv 24  Jarvi, T.T.          BW-377  1.00 I-16       Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24  Jarvi, T.T.          BW-377  1.00 Spitfire   Okay
10.03.43 LeLv 24  Jarvi, T.T.          BW-377  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
18.04.43 LeLv 24  Jarvi, T.T.          BW-377  2.00 LaGG-3     Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24  Jarvi, T.T.          BW-377  1.00 Jak-1      Okay
02.05.43 LeLv 24  Jarvi, T.T.          BW-377  0.50 LaGG-3     Okay
05.06.43 LeLv 24  Jarvi, T.T.          BW-377  1.00 Jak-1      Okay
18.06.44 LeLv 26  Juurinen, A.         BW-382  1.00 Pe-2       Okay
27.06.44 LeLv 26  Juurinen, A.         BW-382  1.00 R-5        Okay
15.07.44 LeLv 26  Juurinen, A.         BW-382  1.00 LaGG-3     Okay
09.07.41 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  2.00 I-153      Okay
21.07.41 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-353  1.00 I-153      Okay
01.08.41 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-353  2.00 I-16       Okay
12.08.41 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  3.00 I-153      Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-363  1.00 I-16       Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 I-15bis    Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 I-153      Okay
28.09.41 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 MiG-1      Okay
14.12.41 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
28.01.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 Hurricane  Okay
06.02.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  2.00 SB-2bis    Okay
09.03.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
14.03.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
28.03.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  2.00 I-153      Okay
25.06.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  2.00 Hurricane  Okay
13.08.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 Pe-2       Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  2.00 I-16       Okay
18.08.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  3.00 I-16       Okay
20.09.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 Spitfire   Okay
20.09.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 MiG-1      Okay
20.10.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 He-111     Okay
26.10.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-368  1.00 Hurricane  Okay
22.11.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-364  1.00 Spitfire   Okay
23.11.42 LeLv 24  Juutilainen, E.I.    BW-351  1.00 Tomahawk   Okay
04.07.41 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 SB-2bis    Okay
09.07.41 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-363  1.00 I-153      Okay
12.08.41 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 I-153      Okay
23.09.41 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.50 I-16       Okay
26.09.41 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  2.00 I-153      Okay
17.12.41 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 I-153      Okay
17.12.41 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 Hurricane  Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 MiG-1      Okay
26.02.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 MiG-3      Okay
02.07.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-388  1.00 Pe-2       Okay
04.08.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 Hurricane  Okay
14.08.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  2.00 Hurricane  Okay
16.08.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-388  3.00 I-16       Okay
18.08.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-388  2.00 I-16       Okay
18.08.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-388  1.00 Pe-2       Okay
20.09.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 Spitfire   Okay
26.10.42 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 Spitfire   Okay
23.02.43 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 I-16       Okay
02.03.43 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 I-153      Okay
21.04.43 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-364  1.00 Jak-1      Okay
04.05.43 LeLv 24  Karhunen, J.         BW-366  1.00 I-153      Okay
25.05.43 LeR 3    Karu, V.J.           BW-???  1.00 He-111     Okay
...

http://www.warbirdforum.com/scores.htm
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Offline Greebo

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 03:55:33 AM »
Interesting its almost entirely fighter kills. Its probably the same story in AH.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2012, 05:43:26 AM »
Quote from: zarkov on December 28, 2012, 08:03:48 PM
The Finns used the Brewster as a front-line fighter up until 1943.

It was used as a front-line fighter throughout the Continuation War and then against Germans in Lapland right to the end of 1944.


As for the aircraft types Brewster flew against in Finnish service...

Here are few aerial victories of the Brewster during the last summer of the Continuation War:

17.06.44, 16.45-17.45, P-39
17.06.44, 17.20-17.25, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, La-5
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 10.50-11.30, La-5
14.07.44, 15.15-16.50, Yak-9
14.07.44, 16.00-16.30, Yak-9
15.07.44, 11.35-12.55, LaGG-3
16.07.44, 13.10, La-5
16.07.44, 13.17, La-5
27.08.44, 09.30-11.15, P-40

Source:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/

...it is also good to remember that many of these victories were scored while being significantly outnumbered and by the summer of '44, Brewsters obviously were starting to be rather war weary. Also the Soviet pilot training had improved by then and the pilots that were trained earlier but had survived the war to that point had gained plenty of experience.
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Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline pervert

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 07:09:51 AM »
Finns are impressive,  the brewster is not  :rock
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Offline Megalodon

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2012, 10:38:26 AM »
Quote from: icepac on December 28, 2012, 05:39:53 PM
I will guess that the Finns are simply better at getting the most out of any vehicle or gun.

 lol yeah like a 1000hp out of an engine that made 850 maybe

I just wonder if all those kills have been checked against soviet losses?
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Offline Karnak

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Re: HTC Overmodeled the Brewster!
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2012, 11:32:29 AM »
Quote from: Megalodon on December 29, 2012, 10:38:26 AM
lol yeah like a 1000hp out of an engine that made 850 maybe

I just wonder if all those kills have been checked against soviet losses?
Yes.  Finns actually claimed fewer kills than they got, the only nation to do so to the best of my knowledge.
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