Author Topic: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?  (Read 1758 times)

Offline lulu

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how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« on: December 29, 2012, 11:06:26 AM »
Let's discuss.


 :salute


P.S:

Let's describe the maneouvres pls with a list.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 11:51:35 AM by lulu »
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Offline Mar

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 11:46:30 AM »
Snap-rolls, with lots of practice. Or, in planes like the 109 when you're too slow to pull off a snap-roll, unload the plane (make zero G) and use aileron with the torque. Again, the more you practice, the more finely and accurately you can do it.
𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝒹𝑜𝓌𝓈 𝑜𝒻 𝓌𝒶𝓇'𝓈 𝓅𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝒶 𝒹𝑒𝓂𝑜𝓃 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒶𝒾𝓇 𝓇𝒾𝓈𝑒𝓈 𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝑔𝓇𝒶𝓋𝑒

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Offline lulu

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 11:52:47 AM »
Snsp-roll in the verse of torque, i suppose !?
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2012, 12:35:43 PM »
keeping the same alt:

at corner speed, flat turn
over corner speed, high yoyo
under corner speed, low yoyo

? :headscratch:
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 12:37:18 PM by RTHolmes »
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Offline Mar

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 12:47:19 PM »
Snsp-roll in the verse of torque, i suppose !?

Not necessarily. Actually I find it to be easier to snap-roll to the right rather than left with the torque, because the plane usually has a tendency to side-slip very badly if you don't do it just right.

Holmes, I believe he is talking about changing direction as fast as possible.
𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝒹𝑜𝓌𝓈 𝑜𝒻 𝓌𝒶𝓇'𝓈 𝓅𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝒶 𝒹𝑒𝓂𝑜𝓃 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒶𝒾𝓇 𝓇𝒾𝓈𝑒𝓈 𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝑔𝓇𝒶𝓋𝑒

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Offline Mace2004

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 01:53:27 PM »
Snap rolls are not reversals.  At the end of a snap roll you're generally headed in the same direction as when you start.  Reversals are divided up like this.  First, role reversal (notice I said role, not roll).  This is simply going from offensive to defensive or visa versa. Second, control reversal.  Changing from a left turn to a right turn.  However, the OP asked specifically about reversing or turning back quickly. 

This, simply defined, means a 180 degree change of direction.  Holms is correct as far as he goes.  Your best turn rate occurs at corner velocity so if you're above corner you need to slow down (high yoyo), if you're below corner you need to speed up (low yo-yo) and if you're at corner then, theoretically you can just do a flat turn.  Problem is, with WWII aircraft you'll always bleed so a flat turn isn't going to do much good.  There is another consideration though and that's your turn radius.  A high yo-yo, even if below corner, may be advantageous because it uses gravity to decrease your turn radius.  If you have a large turn radius and are being chased by someone with a smaller turn radius give you by the high yo-yo will reduce the angles he'll gain and may even result in a neutral nose-to-nose pass.  If you do a low yo-yo, gravity will increase your radius and may give your adversary the ability to turn inside of you.

There's another subset of reversal's though and that's the vertical reversal.  These are usually also known as a "rudder reversal."  In this case, we're talking about a vertical fight versus a predominently horizontal fight.  The typical scenario is one aircraft roping another.  When the lower fighter falls off the upper fighter reverses and dives in for the kill.  This reversal is typically at slow speed (below about 100mph) and is best done using a combination of rudder and engine torque (hence the term rudder reversal).  At higher speeds (above about 100mph) then simply completing the top of a loop works.
Mace
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Offline Saxman

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 03:49:31 PM »
If you're just talking about reversing direction, not position, if I have the airspeed I prefer using an Immelman (the modern half-loop, not the original maneuver)
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Offline lulu

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 08:42:39 AM »
1-st synthesis


           air-speed

  low                   high                        corner

  snap-roll            Immelman                over: High yo-yo
  rudder (rope&dope)                           low:  low yo-yo

I think that a point is still missing:  
How do you do the turn ?

Bank, pull, throttling  or
Put nose down a bit, rudder a bit, bank and pull, throttling too ?



P.S.

Hey Mar, i did a snap-roll wiht a f4u 1-a at 30-50 yards from my tail. It  worked well.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 08:46:16 AM by lulu »
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Offline Mar

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 11:56:33 AM »
Hey Mar, i did a snap-roll wiht a f4u 1-a at 30-50 yards from my tail. It  worked well.

Indeed, good job. :)
𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝒹𝑜𝓌𝓈 𝑜𝒻 𝓌𝒶𝓇'𝓈 𝓅𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝒶 𝒹𝑒𝓂𝑜𝓃 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒶𝒾𝓇 𝓇𝒾𝓈𝑒𝓈 𝒻𝓇𝑜𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝑔𝓇𝒶𝓋𝑒

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Offline Badboy

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2012, 07:37:43 PM »
1-st synthesis

snap-roll

lulu, it was already explained in a previous post that a snap-roll doesn't reverse your turn.

Quote
Hey Mar, i did a snap-roll wiht a f4u 1-a at 30-50 yards from my tail. It  worked well.

Of course in this case it was used as a guns defense and not a reversal. At that range a snap roll appears to the attacker as though the aircraft flicks around rapidly, very similar to the stick stirring effect, and often just ends in a collision or getting gunned anyway. The last time I saw it, I just smiled, pulled up to avoid the collision and the overshoot, then adjusted for another shot. But I'm off topic, you asked about turn reversals and not how to do a guns defence.

Hope that helps...

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Offline Badboy

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2012, 07:54:28 PM »
Hi

In addition to the reversals already explained, here is one more option that can be used when there is no real urgency, because you have enough room to reverse. However, now your concern is not how to reverse as quickly as possible, because the problems is that reversing quickly involves using more G and that may leave you with an energy deficiency for the ensuing fight. The simple fact is that with equally skilled pilots in the same aircraft merging with an energy deficiency is the kiss of death. So you want to reverse, but not as quickly as possible, but with the least cost in energy as possible, thus beginning the fight with the best chance of success.

Here is what you can do:



This process actually costs energy due to the G used, but during the part of the reversal when your speed is lower than the attacker you are gaining energy relative to your faster opponent and the two effects cancel out to bring you to the merge with as close to the same energy as your opponent as possible. You can even judge it so that you merge slightly below and slightly faster than your opponent which is about as good as it gets against someone good.

Hope that helps...

Badboy
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Offline Changeup

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2012, 08:16:43 PM »
Hi

In addition to the reversals already explained, here is one more option that can be used when there is no real urgency, because you have enough room to reverse. However, now your concern is not how to reverse as quickly as possible, because the problems is that reversing quickly involves using more G and that may leave you with an energy deficiency for the ensuing fight. The simple fact is that with equally skilled pilots in the same aircraft merging with an energy deficiency is the kiss of death. So you want to reverse, but not as quickly as possible, but with the least cost in energy as possible, thus beginning the fight with the best chance of success.

Here is what you can do:

(Image removed from quote.)

This process actually costs energy due to the G used, but during the part of the reversal when your speed is lower than the attacker you are gaining energy relative to your faster opponent and the two effects cancel out to bring you to the merge with as close to the same energy as your opponent as possible. You can even judge it so that you merge slightly below and slightly faster than your opponent which is about as good as it gets against someone good.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

It should be noted that both of these maneuvers require at least 1K of separation to avoid certain death, especially against fast, high roll-rate a/c like the LA7, PonyD, and Tempest
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Offline lulu

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2012, 08:52:59 PM »
TY Badboy and Changeup.

Just a question,
how much difference in speed between attacker and defender does this maneouvre needs?


And if the attacker will follow up the defender does it still works?

 :salute
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Offline Changeup

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2012, 09:55:11 PM »
TY Badboy and Changeup.

Just a question,
how much difference in speed between attacker and defender does this maneouvre needs?


And if the attacker will follow up the defender does it still works?

 :salute

Difference in speed is negligible unless you are slow...if you're too slow to pull the shallow climb, this cannot be done effectively unless he's slow too but you have to have separation.  This also assumes you've got alt to work with.  To pull these off, you really need to possess similar speeds.  Separation is they key....

My favorite is when you're slow and he's faster.  Once he's 1K out on your 6, start a slow, flat turn and as you see him turning with you for the lead shot, pull up when he appears to be parallel with you and and turning to follow you up.  You'll be slower, barrel roll into him, drop a notch of flaps and he'll slide right in front of you.  If he flies by instead of following you up,  you nose down, gather some squirrels, and extend to re-engage.  The Krupinski Reversal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 09:57:17 PM by Changeup »
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Badboy

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Re: how do you reverse or turn back quickly as you can?
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2013, 04:29:36 AM »
It should be noted that both of these maneuvers require at least 1K of separation to avoid certain death, especially against fast, high roll-rate a/c like the LA7, PonyD, and Tempest

Hi,

It depends on the circumstances, but the range needs to be enough that that you are confident there is plenty of room to complete the maneuver before you come back into guns range. This maneuver is a fairly lazy, energy conserving maneuver, if you are under any risk of being gunned before it is complete you shouldn't risk it. I find this is only worth trying if you can see the bandit isn't closing and you clearly have enough separation.

Exactly what range you need depends on the aircraft and if the bandit is closing or not and depends largely on your experience and judgement. The important thing is that if you have any doubts that you can complete this maneuver without risking a shot, you need to use one of the reversals described by Mace earlier that will get you around much quicker.

Badboy
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 05:14:43 AM by Badboy »
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