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Author Topic: Algerian Hostages  (Read 875 times)

Offline nrshida

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2013, 04:43:44 PM »
Quote from: bozon on January 20, 2013, 09:22:51 AM
Why would they let other counties to send troops and operate on their land? No European country would. They did the right thing in a very bad way.

Because they are amateurs.

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Offline B3YT

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2013, 05:03:22 PM »
European countries often allow an exchange of personal if they need the expertise . SAS train with Germans  and French . They advise is hostage situations . If I remember on several occasions in the 1980's the SAS work alot with German SF on hijackings .  Hereford often gets in influx of non HMRA soldiers on exercise .     
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2013, 06:26:40 PM »
as sad as it is for the hostages, I think they sent a message that if you come here we gonna kill you no matter what.  Terrorist usually depend on negotiation, they just found out that Algeria doesnt negotiate.

I remember back in the 80's when westerners were being kidnapped in the middle east.  The first time russians were kidnapped in the middle east, the KGB/special forces found out who was involved and kidnapped their relatives and sent their body pieces to the kidnappers.   The hostages were released and there were no more russian kidnappers.


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Offline macleod01

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2013, 11:58:36 PM »
I don't believe in negotiating with terrorists, but Algerian forces botched one rescue attempt, killing several hostages and not ending the seige. At that moment, they knew what they were dealing with, they knew Expats were in there, including US and UK citizens. I still firmly believe that further loss of hostages would have been avoided had Algeria said that the SAS could go in.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2013, 02:02:28 AM »
Quote from: B3YT on January 20, 2013, 05:03:22 PM
European countries often allow an exchange of personal if they need the expertise . SAS train with Germans  and French . They advise is hostage situations . If I remember on several occasions in the 1980's the SAS work alot with German SF on hijackings .  Hereford often gets in influx of non HMRA soldiers on exercise .     
I want to see what happens if non-Euro hostages were held in Germany or UK. Lets say Russian or Chinese hostages are held in the UK. Will the UK allow Russian/Chinese special forces to operate there? I think we all know the answer.

In 1972 during the Munich Olympics Palestinian terrorists held 11 Israeli athletes as hostages. Germany did not allow Israeli special forces to operate and went on a botched rescue attempt themselves. All the hostages were killed - the Algerians had better hostage survival rates than that.

Quote from: macleod01 on January 20, 2013, 11:58:36 PM
I don't believe in negotiating with terrorists, but Algerian forces botched one rescue attempt, killing several hostages and not ending the seige. At that moment, they knew what they were dealing with, they knew Expats were in there, including US and UK citizens. I still firmly believe that further loss of hostages would have been avoided had Algeria said that the SAS could go in.
So what is important is that they were UK and US citizens? If they were Brazilian and Korean than the Algerians should have gone ahead with the operation? It was on Algerian land, they have the full responsibility and the right to decide. Even to decide wrong.
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Offline macleod01

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2013, 02:38:02 AM »
No the nationalities are not important. More I chose to highlight the the US and UK simply because they have the most feared Special Operation forces.
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Offline Plawranc

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2013, 03:59:59 AM »
Delta Force and the SEALs make me nervous...... the SAS terrify me.

The Algerians had every right to do what they did. Their objective was to kill the enemy. They succeeded. Yes the hostages were killed but the terrorists gained nothing. No doubt the SAS would have done the job infinitely better, but the end result is the same. Terrorists dead, situation resolved. Simply more people left standing with the SAS involved.
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Offline B3YT

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2013, 04:28:52 AM »
The thing is we don't know how many operations SAS members do outside of "work" .  They are allowed to take "private" operations  that are not related to UK citizens or government . Many SAS members take these as an extra income . we will never know how many Kidnappings / hostage rescues are done with these members .  The SAS  is very secretive about how many non-sanctioned operations they go on . 

It was after Munich that Germany started to take on how to operate hostage rescue .     
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2013, 05:00:05 AM »
Quote from: bozon on January 21, 2013, 02:02:28 AM
I want to see what happens if non-Euro hostages were held in Germany or UK. Lets say Russian or Chinese hostages are held in the UK. Will the UK allow Russian/Chinese special forces to operate there? I think we all know the answer.

In 1972 during the Munich Olympics Palestinian terrorists held 11 Israeli athletes as hostages. Germany did not allow Israeli special forces to operate and went on a botched rescue attempt themselves. All the hostages were killed - the Algerians had better hostage survival rates than that.
So what is important is that they were UK and US citizens? If they were Brazilian and Korean than the Algerians should have gone ahead with the operation? It was on Algerian land, they have the full responsibility and the right to decide. Even to decide wrong.


Surely the intelligent solution is to employ the best tool for the job, if that is offered to you.


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Offline GScholz

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2013, 06:48:18 AM »
Quote from: nrshida on January 20, 2013, 04:43:44 PM
Because they are amateurs.



They've been fighting these terrorists for the last 20 years; successfully I might add. Since 2001 they've also been training with US forces.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2013, 08:08:18 AM »
Quote from: GScholz on January 21, 2013, 06:48:18 AM
They've been fighting these terrorists for the last 20 years; successfully I might add. Since 2001 they've also been training with US forces.

Unfortunately a lot of dead hostages imply they aren't so hot at rescues. It is a regrettable situation.







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Offline Bodhi

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2013, 08:14:42 AM »
There are reports that some of the hostages were wired with explosives.  That some of the bodies they are finding are badly mutilated, it is entirely plausible to believe that some of these hostages might very well have been inaccessible regardless of "who" went in.

This isn't Hollywood.  People die all the time, especially when deranged religious fanatics are involved.
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Offline bozon

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2013, 09:37:33 AM »
Quote from: nrshida on January 21, 2013, 05:00:05 AM

Surely the intelligent solution is to employ the best tool for the job, if that is offered to you.

Do not over estimate SAS or the other special forces. SAS is not an anti-terror unit, so such operation are not their specialty. There are no guarantees even if they went in instead of the Algerians. The Algerian prime directives seem to have been: No negotiations and no terrorist walks away. The operated accordingly and achieved their prime goals. The secondary goal of rescuing some hostages was not as successful.

It is not only about using the best tool. Nationality and sovereignty play a part in such decisions also, especially when inviting in "colonial empires" to operate on ex-colonial land.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2013, 09:43:38 AM »
Quote from: bozon on January 21, 2013, 09:37:33 AM
Do not over estimate SAS or the other special forces. SAS is not an anti-terror unit, so such operation are not their specialty.

I do not, I just think they might have had a better chance than this sledgehammer approach. Now we will never know. Your second statement is inaccurate.



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Offline GScholz

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Re: Algerian Hostages
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2013, 11:42:44 AM »
This was not your typical Hollywood hostage situation. The terrorists took control of a huge gas processing plant with close to a thousand workers. Most of those who survived simply hid from the terrorists, or managed to flee the area. At least that's what the Norwegian survivors are saying.

That around 40 hostages were killed is, of course, tragic, but we should also recognize that more than 600 survived.
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