Late war limited to Late War Planes and vehicles

[Vinkman]

It's funny how we all think of Late war rides as uber. Late war rides are really just a different trade off, with emphasis on Speed, often at the expense of maneuverablity. This means turny planes like Brewesters, Hurri2C, Fm2, A6M, have a big advantage over most late-war rides in a dog fight. The old planes can't run you down, or run away, but they do affect the dynamics of a late war fight.

So I'm wondering if E-W, M-W and L-W should be limited to ONLY the planes active during that era? It's currently stepped, so that Mid-War is really Mid-War + Early War, and L-W is everything.

Negatives of the current system: Getting tag teamed by a pony and Brewster.  This is a tough combo to beat. If you try to fight the brewster you'll get picked by the pony, if the pony turn fights, you'll get killed by the brewster. This is a much harder 2 v 1 than say fighting two ponies. The Brewster vs Pony is a complete mismatch. These missmatches lead to bad action, which leads to whining. Example: Ponies only kill Brewsters when they pick them. Brewsters only kill Ponies when they pick them, because no pony is mixing it up with Brewster on purpose. And no Brewster can catch a LW ride to force a fight. If a pony sees my K4, he might want to fight me, but he's not going to do it, with a Brewster a Zeke and hurri, hanging around. I often won't engage a bandit if a turny bird is hanging around. I would easily engage 2 Mustangs, or a Mustang and Dora.

Positives of the current system: Getting tag teamed by a pony and Brewster. This is as tough as it gets. If you want to test the limit of your abilities, Mismatches like this will do it. Again the AH experiment of "what would happen if" is always interesting.

Commentary: How often do you hear the chest thumping of a LW  pilot in an EW ride, bragging about killing someone in a 35 ENY plane? Then same pilot is whining that everyone BnZ'd and Picked him. the myth is that EW planes are Lesser planes, when in fact they aren't lesser at all. They are uber turners, while LW planes are uber fast. But I think these planes are so far outside each other's performance envloples they can't really fight each other. It becomes a contest of how isn't looking or who screws up.

I wonder if the fights in LW would be better if the EW and MW planes sets were deactivated, so the plane set was more evenly matched?  Not a Wish List item...wanted to discuss first.

Thoughts? 

Was this ever tried in AH before?

[Lusche]

Was this ever tried in AH before?

Yes. After the split, it was exactly this way for some time. However, for many players flying a seemingly "outperformed" EW ride in LW is exactly the kind of challenge they are looking for, be it all the time or just occasionally.

And it's illusory to believe going back to this would in any way reduce 'whining'. Some players do always whine, no matter what or why.

And to follow your example: If you take the Brewster away, it would be not Pony vs Brewster anymore, but (for example) Pony vs A6M5. Still the same dissimilarity in performance envelopes and resulting combat styles.

[Karnak]

There other thing is that some early war and almost all mid war aircraft were still active until the end of the war.  Removing Early War planes from the LWA would remove things like the Hurricane Mk IIc and Ju88A-4 that fought until the end of the war.  The list of Mid War aircraft that fought to the end of the war but would be removed under from the LWA that rule encompasses almost every Mid War aircraft, highlights being things like the A6M5b, B-17G, Bf109G-6, Mosquito Mk VI and Typhoon Mk Ib.

[Vinkman]

Yes. After the split, it was exactly this way for some time...

Was any different? what are your thoughts on how it was different/better/worse/same?

And it's illusory to believe going back to this would in any way reduce 'whining'. Some players do always whine, no matter what or why.

I should not have emplied that it was a whining cure. 

And to follow your example: If you take the Brewster away, it would be not Pony vs Brewster anymore, but (for example) Pony vs A6M5. Still the same dissimilarity in performance envelopes and resulting combat styles.

This, I think, is Karnak's point.  I don't know which of the planes in LW would be eliminated. I may be wrongly assuming it would be most of MW and all of EW.

[Karnak]

If you are in a Bf109K-4 and see a P-51D and a Brewster you say you aren't inclined to engage.

Would a P-51D and an N1K2-J make you more comfortable?  Or a P-51D and an A6M5b?  Or a P-51D and a Spitfire Mk XVI?

Your suggested change wouldn't do what you want it to do and it would limit people's options to fly what they want.  Under your rule a Finn who wants to fly Brewsters would be forced into the unpopulated EWA.

[Lusche]

Was any different? what are your thoughts on how it was different/better/worse/same?

It was worse, as it removed an option without having any benefit to it in any way. It had no impact on LW gameplay at all, and did not boost EW/MW numbers.

[Karnak]

This, I think, is Karnak's point.  I don't know which of the planes in LW would be eliminated. I may be wrongly assuming it would be most of MW and all of EW.

If your aim was not to blanket remove everything that is available in the EWA and MWA from the LWA and instead just eliminate the units that weren't used after Dec. 31, 1943 you would find that almost every single aircraft that is enabled in the MWA and not the EWA, probably all of them, would still be there in the LWA.  Many aircraft from the EWA were still being used on Jan. 1, 1944.

Consider, the P-51B entered service in Dec of 1943, hence it is enabled in the MWA.  Of course it wasn't withdrawn from service on Jan 1, 1944.  The Mosquito Mk VI which entered service in July of 1943 wasn't withdrawn from service until some time in 1948 as I recall.

It was worse, as it removed an option without having any benefit to it in any way. It had no impact on LW gameplay at all, and did not boost EW/MW numbers.

Yup.  Given the choice of flying what they want or playing with other players they either choose to play with other players flying aircraft lower on their lists or they close their accounts.

[Karnak]

Oops

[Lusche]

I think I have to clarify something I did not explain in my earlier post: It was the non perk EW planes that had been disabled in LW in the beginning, not the full EW/MW planeset.

[ink]

I disagree......it don't matter what is around I am fighting.....and I certainly am not the only one to play like this...

-1

one of the greatest parts of the MA is the unknown....fighting a brew and a 51 at the same time is a good test....

besides I have come to learn it does not matter 90% of the time what I am up against

what does matter is the person controlling the plane  

[SmokinLoon]

I think there is merit to limiting the LW arenas to MW and LW planes.  I'm not sure how much but it does make sense.  Just how often did the USAAF encounter a 109F-4 over Germany in 1944?  Or how often did the Germans encounter the I-16 over the Ost Front in 1945? 

I dunno... I'm kind of torn. As it is, I think it is well enough.  Until AH has about 5 times the number of players I think HTC has best leave it alone.  Variety is the spice of life, ya know. 

I think the better thing to do would be to tweak the ENY system a bit.  There are a lot of planes that need adjustment. 

[Scotch]

Haven't you seen the Iron Eagle movies?

[Oldman731]

It was worse, as it removed an option without having any benefit to it in any way. It had no impact on LW gameplay at all, and did not boost EW/MW numbers.

If memory serves, the EW-MW-LW distinction didn't last very long, perhaps a few months (hey...you probably have the figures!).  My recollection is that EW and MW were well-populated during that time.  I've often thought it was a mistake not to leave the arenas that way longer - assuming one sees value in keeping period planes fighting period planes - and I never heard a clear reason why HTC went to what Vink accurately describes as a step system.

That said, I have no opinion on whether reverting to the original idea would increase or decrease AH customer base.

- oldman

[Lusche]

If memory serves, the EW-MW-LW distinction didn't last very long, perhaps a few months (hey...you probably have the figures!).  My recollection is that EW and MW were well-populated during that time.  I've often thought it was a mistake not to leave the arenas that way longer - assuming one sees value in keeping period planes fighting period planes - and I never heard a clear reason why HTC went to what Vink accurately describes as a step system.

It was the novelty factor that populated EW and MW, not the planeset. See how WWI numbers changed - Incredibly strong first month. so-so second month, neglibile numbers (compared to LW) after that. And all without any change in planeset or arena settings.
On top of that, particularly EW was suffering fom severe setup / gameplay issues from start.

[ink]

I think there is merit to limiting the LW arenas to MW and LW planes.  I'm not sure how much but it does make sense.  Just how often did the USAAF encounter a 109F-4 over Germany in 1944?  Or how often did the Germans encounter the I-16 over the Ost Front in 1945?  

I dunno... I'm kind of torn. As it is, I think it is well enough.  Until AH has about 5 times the number of players I think HTC has best leave it alone.  Variety is the spice of life, ya know.  

I think the better thing to do would be to tweak the ENY system a bit.  There are a lot of planes that need adjustment.  

cough READ SIG cough

damn I just realized my quote was not the part in his post that refers to your post


edit...edit

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Re: Idea for Strat Change for Refinery and Fuel Tanks and Better Game Play
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 07:06:25 PM »
   Reply with quoteQuote
"Tinkles, the point is not about playing war, the point is about making a game of war, vs using what happened in WW2 as an argument for GAME change.

I.E. Aces High main arena play, is not trying to recreate WW2. It is simply trying to make a game using WW2 equipment. Hence any idea/discussions primary purpose should be how does it effect GAME play, Not using what happened in WW2 as a justification for a game play change...."

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,345141.15.html



sorry if this offends you HiTech....me using your words...but I figure maybe it will shed some light....