First turn merge How many Gs?

[Randy1]

My P38 is in a perfect position with say a spit or 109 for the first lead turn.  We are heading for each other and I have achieved separation by diving then getting my nose level.  I have gotten below the spit and I am ready to get my nose up before the spit can so I can enter into a Immelman for a first turn merge.  Entry speed is say 300 indicated.  I have WEP.  I am in perfect position for the first turn.  Life is good.

Should the first turn be low G to make the turn as big as possible or should I pull back hard for a high G turn and a smaller radius turn?

[TequilaChaser]

My P38 is in a perfect position with say a spit or 109 for the first lead turn.  We are heading for each other and I have achieved separation by diving then getting my nose level.  I have gotten below the spit and I am ready to get my nose up before the spit can so I can enter into a Immelman for a first turn merge.  Entry speed is say 300 indicated.  I have WEP.  I am in perfect position for the first turn.  Life is good.

Should the first turn be low G to make the turn as big as possible or should I pull back hard for a high G turn and a smaller radius turn?

• 1st, I would want to be doing just a bit more faster than 300, something like 325 IAS up to 360 IAS, at 300 IAS you will bleed E fast, specifically if you in the G model P38
• 2nd, if you are unable to determine your opponent's "energy" state, then I suggest you only try to mirror  / mimic their exact movements, using as low G manuevers as possible, until you bleed them down
• 3rd, Do Not Always Be Perdictable! meaning do not use the Immelman everytime, instead switch it up with some "pitchbacks" , this burns less E as well as puts you in an out of plane position, causing them to burn more E to bring guns to bear
• 4th, although you have WEP ( means you in the J or L model P38, I still think 300 is a bit slow entering the fight/merge unless you "KNOW" your plane and it's abilitys..... I have found numerous players have this issue in the P38 series
• 5th, Once you starting getting better at reading your opponents energy state, you might even be able to hear them go "Throttle Off" at the 3-9 line crossing, so they can pull their tightest reversal, this would be when to turn HARD
• My personal preference is to fly using a manual trim set to 325 IAS up to 335 IAS : in level flight, and leave it there, to me this helps with any nose bounce when flaps are used in a turning fight, and helps to regain speed quickly on the downward side of a vertical turn.... not letting the flaps auto retract, I retract them as soon as my nose is below the horizon pointing more than 25 degree low

EDIT: regarding #5 above, I said if you visualize them turning HARD, or hear them go "Throttle Off / Chop Throttle" during your first 3-9 line crossing on first merge, to turn HARD....... this is not always so...... it is a preference thing!!!

        One could also use a low G reversing climb and since you are holding more speed, you just might be able to "rope" your opponent, or least make them stall & faulter below you for an easy target...... just saying..... so many options

Also regarding mimicing/mirroring your opponent, is to watch and react to what they do, but in this situation, you need to be quick and exact at the same time smooth..... I would not really recommend this to newer players, especially less than 6 months playing time.....

I am not specifically a "Full Time" P-38 flyer............ however I have helped many find their shortcomings regarding losing the merge, or not retaining enough "Energy", by blowing it on the first merge reversal...

Hope Some Of This Is Helpful!  Good Luck  

TC

[Delirium]

There are too many variables you haven't mentioned, Randy.

Are you fighting an aircraft with a higher wing loading than your own? If so, having more speed can be helpful as the other aircraft won't stay and fight for long and you'll want the energy reserves. Against Typhoons, I tend to have larger turn circles as I'm minimizing my G to be able to capitalize on his eventual extention.

Are you entering a fight at 300IAS versus an aircraft with an altitude advantage, or do you have the advantage? The P38 tends to get a lot of energy nose low, if you're entering that fight with that much energy, you'll likely fly past and lose that initial altitude advantage.
This is excerpt of a quote from Lloyd Wenzel, who flew P38s in wartime with the 474th.

"With low drag, it was easy to get to the critical Mach. The flat plate area of the bird was about the size of a folding card
table and it went like hell with the nose down."

What he is saying is the drag of the airframe was very low and it built up speed very easily. Our P38 in Aces High does the same thing, so throttle back when nose low unless the opponent is going to extend from you.

[Delirium]

I have gotten below the spit and I am ready to get my nose up before the spit can so I can enter into a Immelman for a first turn merge.  Entry speed is say 300 indicated. 

Should the first turn be low G to make the turn as big as possible or should I pull back hard for a high G turn and a smaller radius turn?

It would help if I read your post completely, instead of studying TC's. 

If you're below the spit, a larger energy cushion isn't a bad idea so you can meet his attack instead of performing flat turns. Keep in mind you can always cut throttle at the top to tighten the loop (or actually nose over) and get quick angles. For example, I was fighting a F6 the other day while carrying a heavy fuel load. The F6 was clearly out climbing me but I minimized my profile and chopped throttle as we passed. Using god's G, I was able reverse very quickly and it gave me the angles to end the fight quickly.

[Babalonian]

My P38 is in a perfect position with say a spit or 109 for the first lead turn.  We are heading for each other and I have achieved separation by diving then getting my nose level.  I have gotten below the spit and I am ready to get my nose up before the spit can so I can enter into a Immelman for a first turn merge.  Entry speed is say 300 indicated.  I have WEP.  I am in perfect position for the first turn.  Life is good.

Should the first turn be low G to make the turn as big as possible or should I pull back hard for a high G turn and a smaller radius turn?

Sustained turn rates 101, sustaining turn radius' 101, and energy management 101 - go.  You've got a lot to learn (too much to touch on in one dose), but should have lots of fun doing it and shooting down more red guys along the way.

From your example:
Turning hard will reduce your energy/speed greater than gentle/gradual turning.  Turning down (with gravity) before reaching your highest reachable point in your circle/arc, will reduce your energy/speed greater.  You can trade your energy for that shot opportunity now, or save it for that opportunity that hasn't presented itself yet.  If you go with the now and it doesn't work, what is your situation/state then for what is about ot happen next?  (and how good/bad/pretty are you gonna be sitting?).

Big blank canvas there in your example, but it's not a bad thing (just a lot to go with and expand on).

[mthrockmor]

As stated, lots of options. The single biggest key, other than your own E-state is estimating the other persons E-state. If at the merge they are slow I will almost always hit WEP (if it isn't already on) and do a low-G vertical move. Since they are slow, I am fast, I get up high, see how they responded then act.

If they are also fast I will likely take the same route, getting as much altitude as possible, see what they do and decide if I go over the top or roll over and extend. One note, I have a small world of Fw-190A5s and the rest being shiny targets for my 20mms. This means that in a 190 I will stall fight but under a much more narrow set of circumstances I try and control. If I have estimated their E-state correctly and handle my own, to include flaps, etc I will get them slow and stupid, then drop in for the kill.

One of the biggest tricks is getting a sense for the other guys E-state, fast or slow. That helps you make good decisions.

I am guessing these answers might frustrate you because you wanted to know 'hard or soft G-turn.' Recognize that is the right question, just a few others come up before that one. E-state is part of Situational Awareness, or SA.

My two cents.

[Randy1]

First, let me thank everyone for the replies.  They were all well thought out.  Y'all hit me with a boku of information so I have lots to think about now for sure.  

No doubt from the replies my biggest missing ingredient is the opponents E status.  That is one skill I have yet to develop beyond knowing other planes and judging their altitude.

TC's reply will give me solid everyday guidance till I understand the problem I posed a little better.  TC If I don't have the 325 should I push the nose down or extended?

I must say I am taken back by  the complication of the merge beyond the basic ACM.  That is probably why i get bet so badly when I run into good stick people.

Let me break my question down further so i an build on SA first.  We will use the Spit as an example and add information that I can see out the P38 cockpit.

Using the same situation in my original post.  I want to add to my ability to gather information and expand my SA in this 1v1 so I can make a sound first turn. Here is the SA I think I know.  What am I missing?

Lets say I know he is about 1K higher.
I know a spit turns tighter than a knot in a rope and I know it climbs like a rocket.
Lest say too I can see the spit has seen my move and is trying to counter with the nose trying to get below my nose.  I am guessing he has smack as they say but I don't know how much E the Spit started with.
What other information should I look for to improve my SA so I can make a good first move?

[Drano]

Some things to consider when fighting Spits or 109s in the 38. While it depends on the model generally, plane for plane, they'll both out turn you and out climb you, especially the 109s for the latter. Both have better roll rate but if you're flying the Lightning I don't have to tell you that. They can be out turned--in the short term-- but it's very dependent on your flap use and their flap use--that pilot thing. All models of the 38 compared to any of these is a much, much heavier bird. So you have to be mindful of the "God's G" that Babalon aluded to earlier. Gravity can be both your friend and your enemy. It makes it hard to maintain speed going downhill with such a heavy clean bird like the 38. Nose down it picks up speed quickly and this will widen your radius and also slow your rate. You can negate this by throttle management and using flaps. I like flaps on nose low and then off nose high. Here the weight of the bird can help carry you upwards toward the top and you want to shed drag to get there. Going back down it's flaps back on to add drag, not only help with turning but to also slow your acceleration.

Funny, I've been messing with converting films to video just this past week and I put one up of a fight with a G2 in my 38L. It's the only one I played around with as I wanted something basic to start with. This guy followed me from a base that was under heavy attack and thought he had the drop on me. See if you can pick up on what I was doing to negate his advantage. Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGrb1txwK80

[mthrockmor]

The only thing I would add to the 38 - which I do not fly - they seem to have the normal, American level of heavy boom and zoom. The Spit does not worry me at for zooming. The Spit16 will eventually climb up to my A5 but only if I don't get over top of him and make him point his nose down.

With Spits it is all about not turning with them. And at higher speeds the controls get pretty stiff, which means they struggle to keep up with the 190. I am guessing that will be true with the 38L as well.

Just this morning I killed a Hurricane on a 1 v 1. It wasn't easy to finally nail the sucker but it was a lost cause. I had alt and E, the Hurri turns almost as well as a Zero and takes punishment much better. Try as it might, I wouldn't get suckered into a turn fight, everything was over the top. And yes, the A5 dominated the poor guy in his tight turning Hurri.

[Drano]

With Spits it is all about not turning with them.

^^^This^^^

Generally the rule is don't turn with them. You'll upset a lot of Spit drivers (not a bad thing) but the idea is to fight your fight and not the other guy's fight. Low, slow, e-burning turnfight is in the Spitfire's house. Avoid this. Stay fast. Get above.

[katanaso]

^^^This^^^

Generally the rule is don't turn with them. You'll upset a lot of Spit drivers (not a bad thing) but the idea is to fight your fight and not the other guy's fight. Low, slow, e-burning turnfight is in the Spitfire's house. Avoid this. Stay fast. Get above.

But you know that's not the most fun way, Drano! 

[Delirium]

So you have to be mindful of the "God's G" that Babalon aluded to earlier.

 

[Drano]

Oh sorry, Del. Was reading on the Droid.
Old eyes coupled with a narrow screen I got those posts
jumbled.

[Randy1]

Thanks again for all the replies.  Y'all opened my eyes again pushing me to improve my SA.  T

Going back down it's flaps back on to add drag, not only help with turning but to also slow your acceleration.

Funny, I've been messing with converting films to video just this past week and I put one up of a fight with a G2 in my 38L. It's the only one I played around with as I wanted something basic to start with. This guy followed me from a base that was under heavy attack and thought he had the drop on me. See if you can pick up on what I was doing to negate his advantage. Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGrb1txwK80

I was pulling my flaps in too soon.  I tried last night to leave them down longer and I liked the results.  Thanks Drano. 

I watched your video a couple of times.  No doubt , you let the G work until the E was gone.  It was like you were the yolk of an egg and he was the shell going all around till the shell broke.  Good Film.

One of the biggest tricks is getting a sense for the other guys E-state, fast or slow. That helps you make good decisions.

I got burned by a Brewster the other night because I failed to judge the Brew's E.  I hit WEP and went straight up.  Doggone if that little #&*^% didn't follow me up like it was a 109.

[Drano]

But you know that's not the most fun way, Drano! 

As Jefferey Lebowski would say..........."Well.........Yeah!"