F-35 Fighters Are Grounded

[nrshida]

Just for you Shida - British Aerospace test pilot's perspective: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kshe7-BYfWc

(Love the score by Two Steps From Hell)

Appears to be a Lockheed Martin commercial.

There are several documentaries including the one made by Nova which are rather less complimentary. I can see you're a big fan of the aircraft but I'm just trying to make a counterpoint.


Busy with design, I'll get back to you...

[danny76]

It hardly performs well. It is subsonic, and the engine placement makes it especially vulnerable to IR missiles. The U.S. Marines lost a disproportionately amount of AV-8s during the Gulf War.

Hardly performs well? Tell that to the Argentine pilots who flew against the Sea Harrier in the Falklands, or to the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan who relied on its close air support and rapid arrival on station

[Fish42]

Appears to be a Lockheed Martin commercial.

There are several documentaries including the one made by Nova which are rather less complimentary. I can see you're a big fan of the aircraft but I'm just trying to make a counterpoint.


Busy with design, I'll get back to you...

Here is  breakdown of the F35 vs a Su-35S by WGCDR Chris Mills, AM, BSc, MSc(AFIT), RAAF (Retd). This is not the final word but gives you an idea why a few in Aus question this aircraft when the our neighbours to the north are buying cheaper and equal or more effective designs.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-05072010-1.html

How will the intended 2,443 F-35s JSF impose air dominance for the USA and its Allies? That is the question to ask.

Search the Internet for material on the JSF and you will find terabyte after terabyte of articles, pictures, Powerpoint presentations, PDFs, tables and laudatory Blogs. And how much relates to how the JSF will deliver this capability? You will find assertions and statement such as ‘six times better Relative Loss Exchange Ratio than legacy aircraft’ [1], or ‘The operational arguments focus on combat effectiveness against top foreign fighter aircraft such as the Russian Su-27 and MiG-29. Lockheed Martin and USAF analysts put the loss-exchange ratio at 30-1 for the F-22, 3-1 for the F-35 and 1-1 or less for the F-15, F/A-18 and F-16’[2].

And how will the F-35 JSF perform, not against truly obsolete legacy aircraft like the Su-27SK and the MiG-29, but against modern fighters like the Su-35S? We can answer these questions with a head-to-head analysis of the two aircraft.

Air combat is a complex mix of art, science and engineering. Aircraft performance, weapons performance, networked sensors and pilot skill all contribute to the final Loss Exchange Ratio (LER). The only simplification is that aircraft approach, engage in combat and the survivors depart. This activity can be examined in a ‘kill-chain’ with the following stages: ‘Detect-Identify-Engage-Disengage-Destroy’ (DIED2).

Here is a scenario. In the ‘Blue’ corner, we have a flight of four F-35A JSFs, each armed with four AIM-120D Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles and the 25 mm GD ATP GAU-22/A cannon. No additional weapons or fuel are carried, because these would compromise the JSFs' “low observability” to X-Band radar. In the ‘Red’ corner, we have a flight of four Su-35S, each armed with four RVV-SD Active Radar Seeker BVR Missiles, four RVV-SD Infra-Red (IR) Seeker BVR missiles, two RVV-MD Within Visual Range (WVR) missiles, the 30mm GSh-301 cannon, KNIRTI SAP-518 jammers on the wingtips and a 6,000 litre conformal tank between the engines. Each aircraft has the full range of sensors and countermeasures.

Here is a table to show how they compare:

[GScholz]

All I know for certain is that I've spoken to two Norwegian fighter pilots who have test flown the F-35, Eurofighter, JAS Gripen and Rafale (contenders for the Norwegian contract). There was no question in their mind which aircraft they would prefer to fly into combat.

[Lusche]

There was no question in their mind which aircraft they would prefer to fly into combat.

A Brewster! 



 

[GScholz]

 

[nrshida]

A Brewster! 

 

[GScholz]

Norwegian pilots have already over 2,000 flight hours logged on the F-35. A little video from our own DoD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtEdfSKgCOQ

[rpm]

A Brewster! 



 

Now THAT was funny!

[Fish42]

Norwegian pilots have already over 2,000 flight hours logged on the F-35. A little video from our own DoD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtEdfSKgCOQ

I have never seen a promotional film for a car/bike/plane where the testers on the company payroll state to the camera that its bad in anyway. The PR spin in the early days of this plane are coming to light and its causing backlash around the world.

Looks like its falling out of favor with the dutch.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2013/02/jsf_jet_does_not_fit_in_revise.php
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/24/dutch-fighter-f-idUSL5E8LO8P320121024

Canada media is tearing it a new one...

http://www.thestar.com/business/2012/12/28/f35_a_case_study_in_deficient_decisionmaking_olive.html

Australia is now talking of a mixed fighter force for the first time in 10 years, thus lowering the number of F35s to 50 or less. This is down from over 100 at the start.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/opinion/political-news/defence-chiefs-obsessed-with-troubled-fighter-jet-fitzgibbon-20130220-2eqru.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pteMgYPm1xM

Watch that last video if you want a bit of an eye opener.

[bozon]

All I know for certain is that I've spoken to two Norwegian fighter pilots who have test flown the F-35, Eurofighter, JAS Gripen and Rafale (contenders for the Norwegian contract). There was no question in their mind which aircraft they would prefer to fly into combat.

Against who exactly?

The F-35 is the answer to a problem that does not exist. By the time such problem pops up, the F-35 itself will be outdated and we will be using X-wings or (perhaps more likely) just drones. If a manned attack plane is needed, you build one like the A4-skyhawk - cheap, simple and to the spec. What you dont do is load up every piece of existing and not-yet-existing technology into an over-specced platform that is supposed to do everything imaginable of a plane in the next 50 years. That is a recipe for a failure.

[Fish42]

The Norwegian Ministry of Defense and servicemen of the Norwegian Air Force are not on the "company payroll". Did you actually view the video?


The media does everything it can to stir up controversy. They did that to the F-16 too. Nothing new.

Ah I guess the meaning was lost there. What i mean by Company Payroll is the MoD has committed a huge investment in the F-35 program. They are using the Tax payers money to buy this equipment and they want to stay in power for the next election. Governments who are shown to have wasted this sort of money on a poor choice, do not normally stay in office if the general public learns of it. So there is little chance of them coming out and saying its a dog.

Also I am willing to bet that there are set damages in the contracts which if a country fails to buy a set % of their original order, then compensation may/will be sort by the seller. (its the sort of thing I see in a lot of contracts I deal with... though my contracts normally top out a lot lower).

The Pilots are in the MoDs pay and will tow the company line unless they want to have a roadblock placed in front of their career. (look up the M2 Bradley and Air Force Col. James Burton)

So in this context "company payroll" refers to the entity with which the person or people are payed in the video.

BTW : I forgot how funny the film "Pentagon Wars" based on James Burtons Book. I used to be a drafter so I know that poor guys pain... Sure you can do... make it fit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyakI9GeYRs

[GScholz]

Naw... I don't think so. What you're describing is a conspiracy theory. The decision to buy the F-35 was not done by the government alone, but by parliament. The ruling labor party has around 30% of the seats in parliament. This was a decision made by all the political parties. Also I kinda find it offensive that you accuse our pilots of lying when they say the F-35 is great.

[Fish42]

Naw... I don't think so.

no your quite right, its all a conspiracy theory...

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/12/joint-strike-fighter-13-flaws/ < these flaws have not been addressed and these are raised by the Pentagon.

Here is a list if you dont want to click the link.


    The helmet-mounted display system does not work properly.
    The fuel dump subsystem poses a fire hazard.
    The Integrated Power Package is unreliable and difficult to service.
    The F-35C's arresting hook does not work.
    Classified "survivability issues", which have been speculated to be about stealth.
    The wing buffet is worse than previously reported.
    The airframe is unlikely to last through the required lifespan. <kind of a big issue for such an
    The flight test program has yet to explore the most challenging areas.
    The software development is behind schedule.
    The aircraft is in danger of going overweight or, for the F-35B, not properly balanced for VTOL operations.
    There are multiple thermal management problems. The air conditioner fails to keep the pilot and controls cool enough, the roll posts on the F-35B overheat, and using the afterburner damages the aircraft.
    The automated logistics information system is partially developed.
    The lightning protection on the F-35 is uncertified, with areas of concern.


Or maybe you will listen to the person who designed the F-16 which you have shown respect for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQB4W8C0rZI

Also I kinda find it offensive that you accuse our pilots of lying when they say the F-35 is great.

Really? They are saying what they are allowed to say. What would happen to a pilot who jumps out of a new plane and says "I hate it, where is my old F-16" to the media or the public?

[GScholz]

You're quoting an article from 2011. Our F-35s are right on schedule for the planned delivery in 2020 (four two-seaters will arrive in 2016).

If you can get your head out of 2011 for a moment, and at least into 2012, you'll see the program is progressing nicely.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2012/06/11/pentagons-best-kept-secret-f-35-fighter-is-progressing-nicely/