Using the TBM-3 in Coral Sea setups

[Devil 505]

i don't think it does/did. your tactics proved that with sinking the lexington with only THREE torp. bombers. and one of those guys made it to a land bast to at least have one member land safely.

My tactic? No-no. That was all Pand and the 416 getting through. If I had my choice, I would have sent NONE on attack. My tactic was having every available aircraft defend the boats. I believed that with enough defenders, we could have kept the boats up. I was dead wrong. My plan hinged on keeping the IJN carriers afloat. I failed. I intended to send all the defending D3As on an attack after T+60 after rearming on the ships that got sunk, despite a great effort and great result in ultimately killing USN aircraft. But alas, even in a defensive rout, we couldn't keep the carriers sailing. It simply takes too many IJN aircraft too long to kill TBM's  

[pops57]

Subbing in a later model Zeke screws up the balance for the other reasonable modeled birds in this fight so I'm thinking that's not so great. Ruining the immersion, try watching torp. bombers flash past you at 500 mph plus in 1942--no, no and so much for immersion! Paint the axis bird and sub it, simple and fair!

[Triton28]

It simply takes too many IJN aircraft too long to kill TBM's  

One point that hasn't been discussed in this performance debate - would the TBD soak up damage like the Kate or more like the TBM?  I honestly don't know how it would model in AH, but something tells me that it would have been a fairly tough plane... like the TBM.

Would a later model Zeke have made a difference for you guys?

[j500ss]

Is this guy serious?

You have GOT to be kidding me. How about all of us freaking Zero's trying to kill THE EASIEST TARGET IN THE WHOLE FREAKING CORAL PACIFIC (TBD Devastator) but wait, we have traveled in time to November of 1944 and cant catch it!!!!! So we have 2 options:

Option A: Keep the TBM-3 as the substitute for the TBD-1 Devastator and force the whole Axis to lose immersion. Not to mention throw accuracy out the window with this 206mph for 275mph crap.

Option B: Change the TBM-3 to the B5N Kate and give the Axis a killable target as the F4F's have now (and as it should be!) and the everyone loses immersion.


Either way CAP, there is no way to design this event in an accurate manner when it comes to plane set. Pick a lesser evil and use it. That goes for all designers. Believe me I will choose the plane of closer performance for a substitution before I choose a plane that is the same damn color.

He's a CM, I suspect he is serious, that is how I take it at least.

Sadly your post wreaks of you wanting exactly as you state.....EASY KILLABLE TARGETS...... Ok that's cool, I totally get that, have for some time actually.

Change the TBM-3 to a B5N?   Get an American skin for it, that should be simple right?   I'd be fine with it, I suspect most in my squad would make due with it, we usually do.

Better yet, get us a TBD, or another way could be simple throw out torpedo planes on both sides, dive bombers and fighters only, more CV targets to have to hit too.
I was all good with this thread, and your case in general, until I saw those 3 words above in bold, that kinda sank ya.

I suspect EVERYONE who participates in FSO, would love nothing more than a complete plane set, so as to run any major operation that occured in WWII, sadly we don't have that, and only 1 person can give us that...... HiTech!   


   

[perdue3]

One point that hasn't been discussed in this performance debate - would the TBD soak up damage like the Kate or more like the TBM?  I honestly don't know how it would model in AH, but something tells me that it would have been a fairly tough plane... like the TBM.

Would a later model Zeke have made a difference for you guys?

It would have made a HUGE difference. But at that point we are at Wake Island, not Coral Sea.

TBD would soak up more than a B5N but not near as much as a TBM-3.


Let me make one final point. Torpedo bombers (designated torpedo bombers) have always been very, very easy meat for enemy fighters to kill. Swordfish, Devastator, B5N Kate, TBF-1, TBM-3, etc. But you must think in relative terms against the fighters they saw.

Torpedo Bomber    vs.    Enemy Fighter

Swordfish            vs.   Bf 109E,F, Macchi C.200
Devastator          vs.   A6M2
B5N Kate             vs.   F4F, F6F, F4U-1
TBF/M-1              vs.   A6M3, A6M5b, Ki-61
TBM-3                 vs.   Ki-61, A6M5b, Ki-84, J2M3, N1K2, Ki-100


My point here is torpedo bombers are very easy kills and always were. That is why we see Ju 88, He 111, Ki-67, G3M, SM.79, Beaufighters refitted to carry torpedos. Because the designated and designed torpedo bombers are all CRAP. Except in this situation when we see a 1944 torpedo bomber versus a 1939 fighter. The TBM-3 is still so bad that it is able to die to A6M2's. But think of how easy it is for an F4F to kill a Kate. That is EXACTLY how easy it was for the Japanese, British, Germans, and Americans to kill designated torpedo bombers in any time of World War II. It should be that easy for the Japanese. To make that possible, the B5N has to be subbed for the TBD-1 Devastator. Period.

[Triton28]

My plan for frame 3 had the minimum numbers of attackers and as many as possible on defense. The actual numbers were 48 attackers (32 B5N and 16 D3A) and 107 defenders (70 A6M2 and 37 D3A).
The TBMs that attacked dove in from 20K hitting over 520 mph. They flew over the carrier in their dive then pulled a 180 degree turn to bleed their speed to get under 200mph and dropped their torps.  Fortunately for us defenders, that turn was still in the ack coverage of the boats. They spent too much time in the ack and got swarmed the defenders in the ack. That is why 24 0f 28 TBM's died in frame 3. Had they employed the same diving tactic but stayed out of the ack, the result would have been much different.
The TBM I killed made further mistakes by not dropping his torp, then pulling another 180 to get away from the boats. I dounced him at a blistering 280mph, but he was going only 150 in that second turn. I peppered him and he tried to maneuver hard but spun it into the drink.
 

You can see clearly the speed differential between the TBM and any IJN aircraft. Simply put, there is no possible way to catch TBM's until after they drop. Propper defense is IMPOSSIBLE against TBMs. I'd also suggest a 5K alt cap for ALL torpedo aircraft. The current way of running this setup is FAR from historically accurate.

I appologize, I honestly missed this earlier.  Are you saying the American torpedo bombers shouldn't be able to outdive a Zero?  They weren't doing 520 straight and level.  They obviously came in high, dove away from you and tried this spinning attack.  What American plane doesn't dive well?  Did the TBD have diving attributes that wouldn't have allowed this attack?  If so, I would seriously be inclined to agree with you.  If it didn't, well, it just comes across as sour grapes.

  

[Devil 505]

I appologize, I honestly missed this earlier.  Are you saying the American torpedo bombers shouldn't be able to outdive a Zero?  They weren't doing 520 straight and level.  They obviously came in high, dove away from you and tried this spinning attack.  What American plane doesn't dive well?  Did the TBD have diving attributes that wouldn't have allowed this attack?  If so, I would seriously be inclined to agree with you.  If it didn't, well, it just comes across as sour grapes.

  

The 20K dive adds insult to injury. That's why I stated the need for a 5K alt cap for torpedo planes. I don't know the dive speed of a TBD but I can guarantee it got nowhere near 520. But again, that is not the real issue. The real issue was that both sides in the coral sea had difficulty getting their torpedo planes in position to drop their load before getting killed. This setup with TBMs give the Allies the luxury of always having most of their torpedoes launched at the carriers.

[perdue3]

He's a CM, I suspect he is serious, that is how I take it at least.

Sadly your post wreaks of you wanting exactly as you state.....EASY KILLABLE TARGETS...... Ok that's cool, I totally get that, have for some time actually.

Change the TBM-3 to a B5N?   Get an American skin for it, that should be simple right?   I'd be fine with it, I suspect most in my squad would make due with it, we usually do.

Better yet, get us a TBD, or another way could be simple throw out torpedo planes on both sides, dive bombers and fighters only, more CV targets to have to hit too.
I was all good with this thread, and your case in general, until I saw those 3 words above in bold, that kinda sank ya.

I suspect EVERYONE who participates in FSO, would love nothing more than a complete plane set, so as to run any major operation that occured in WWII, sadly we don't have that, and only 1 person can give us that...... HiTech!   


   

It is harder than it should be and should be addressed. I dont mind the TBM-3 for a TBF-1. Would you complain if CAP gave us 109G-14's instead of 109D-2's? That is a 44 fighter replacing a 1937. In this case we have a 1944 aircraft design (TBM-3) replacing a 1934 aircraft (TBD-1). Would I-15's and Fokker XXIII's have trouble killing 109G-14's? Anyway, doesn't matter. It will never happen and CAP has made that clear. I appreciate your input <S>

[Triton28]

It would have made a HUGE difference. But at that point we are at Wake Island, not Coral Sea.

TBD would soak up more than a B5N but not near as much as a TBM-3.

Ok.  You guys get later Zeke's next go round.  It won't change my tactics if I'm in a Wildcat.  I'll still have to play the energy game and work with teammates.    

If the TBD was tougher than the B5N, and Cap did as you suggested, wouldn't all of us Allied guys have been able to post a wall of text about how it wasn't fair we were so lightly armored? The toughness of American planes (especially blue ones) is one of their classic traits, no?  I mean I get it, the TBM is faster than the TBD, but like I've said, I was there when Zeke's caught us from behind.  I don't think they dove on us from 15k either.  From what I recall, they disengaged from a lowish fight on our 10 o'clock and Usain Bolted right towards us.

My point here is torpedo bombers are very easy kills and always were. That is why we see Ju 88, He 111, Ki-67, G3M, SM.79, Beaufighters refitted to carry torpedos. Because the designated and designed torpedo bombers are all CRAP. Except in this situation when we see a 1944 torpedo bomber versus a 1939 fighter. The TBM-3 is still so bad that it is able to die to A6M2's. But think of how easy it is for an F4F to kill a Kate. That is EXACTLY how easy it was for the Japanese, British, Germans, and Americans to kill designated torpedo bombers in any time of World War II. It should be that easy for the Japanese. To make that possible, the B5N has to be subbed for the TBD-1 Devastator. Period.

Kate's are easy to kill because they have no armor and die if you look at them mean.  Zero's do too for that matter.  It really does sound like what you want is an American torpedo bomber that is slow and flames easy, like the Kate.  You made the case that the TBM is faster, has a bigger bore machine guns, and climbs better than a TBD ( although I'm not sure how climb rate matters here, given the distance and time we had to climb), but I think you'll have a hard time proving the TBD is close to a Kate in the damage it can take and still fly.

Cap had a call to make.  You think he made the wrong call and I disagree.  That's cool, really.  But so far, unless I've misunderstood what Devil posted, I haven't seen where it really made a difference.

[perdue3]

Ok.  You guys get later Zeke's next go round.  It won't change my tactics if I'm in a Wildcat.  I'll still have to play the energy game and work with teammates.    

If the TBD was tougher than the B5N, and Cap did as you suggested, wouldn't all of us Allied guys have been able to post a wall of text about how it wasn't fair we were so lightly armored? The toughness of American planes (especially blue ones) is one of their classic traits, no?  I mean I get it, the TBM is faster than the TBD, but like I've said, I was there when Zeke's caught us from behind.  I don't think they dove on us from 15k either.  From what I recall, they disengaged from a lowish fight on our 10 o'clock and Usain Bolted right towards us.



Kate's are easy to kill because they have no armor and die if you look at them mean.  Zero's do too for that matter.  It really does sound like what you want is an American torpedo bomber that is slow and flames easy, like the Kate.  You made the case that the TBM is faster, has a bigger bore machine guns, and climbs better than a TBD ( although I'm not sure how climb rate matters here, given the distance and time we had to climb), but I think you'll have a hard time proving the TBD is close to a Kate in the damage it can take and still fly.

Cap had a call to make.  You think he made the wrong call and I disagree.  That's cool, really.  But so far, unless I've misunderstood what Devil posted, I haven't seen where it really made a difference.

It doesnt have to be as easy to kill as a Kate. Just SLOWER and easIER to kill than a TBM. 2 F4F's can wipe out 10 B5N's in 2 minutes. 20 A6M2's take 10 mins to kill 15 TBM-3's.

[Butcher]

It doesnt have to be as easy to kill as a Kate. Just SLOWER and easIER to kill than a TBM. 2 F4F's can wipe out 10 B5N's in 2 minutes. 20 A6M2's take 10 mins to kill 15 TBM-3's.

I'm sorry maybe you should email the Japanese and ask them why they didnt put decent guns on their fighters during World War 2 vs the Americans who found out four 50 cals were plenty to shoot down an unarmored aircraft vs an armed aircraft which the Japanese had a VERY hard time doing.
Even with TBD's you still will need 20 A6ms to shoot down 15 Armored TBDs and F4Fs will continue to shoot down 10 B5Ns.

Wasn't it Saburo Sakai who flew behind an F4F and put a thousand rounds of 7.7 into a Wildcat only to watch it fly off? I think you read to much into the battle of Midway where TBDs flew unescorted on the deck vs Japanese carriers against an entire CAP of Zeros.

[Triton28]

The 20K dive adds insult to injury. That's why I stated the need for a 5K alt cap for torpedo planes. I don't know the dive speed of a TBD but I can guarantee it got nowhere near 520. But again, that is not the real issue. The real issue was that both sides in the coral sea had difficulty getting their torpedo planes in position to drop their load before getting killed. This setup with TBMs give the Allies the luxury of always having most of their torpedoes launched at the carriers.

In frame 1, we were told to climb to 1k and boogie to target.  We followed orders and died before reaching the target.  <shrug>  If the powers that be would have put in an alt cap, we'd have certainly followed it.  Usually, I'd like as few restrictions as possible, but if it helps ensure balance I'm cool with it.  I still don't know how an alt cap would have prevented the attack you described even if we had TBD's in game.  They would have had time to climb and still likely been able to outdive a Zero, but that's just a guess on my part.  I'm sure someone here has something that resembles evidence that could clear that up.  I would venture a guess that not every real life torpedo attack had the planes on the deck the entire way.    

[Devil 505]

 But so far, unless I've misunderstood what Devil posted, I haven't seen where it really made a difference.

You do misunderstand. So I'll repeat myself.

The real issue was that both sides in the coral sea had difficulty getting their torpedo planes in position to drop their load before getting killed. This setup with TBMs give the Allies the luxury of always having most of their torpedoes launched at the carriers.

What that means is, by giving the Allies the B5N as a sub for the TBD, the Allies then use an aircraft that is MORE SIMILAR to the TBD than they currently get with the TBM. As with the real battle, both sides in the event must use thoughtful tactics in order to have consistent success in attacking ships with torpedoes. As it stands with the Allies using TBMs, the allies can simply push through the defenders in order to get into drop position. They are only vulnerable after they drop as they try to get back up to speed. That is the key difference being discussed. That issue is negated by giving the Allies the B5N.

[Devil 505]

In frame 1, we were told to climb to 1k and boogie to target.  We followed orders and died before reaching the target.  <shrug>  If the powers that be would have put in an alt cap, we'd have certainly followed it.  Usually, I'd like as few restrictions as possible, but if it helps ensure balance I'm cool with it.  I still don't know how an alt cap would have prevented the attack you described even if we had TBD's in game.  They would have had time to climb and still likely been able to outdive a Zero, but that's just a guess on my part.  I'm sure someone here has something that resembles evidence that could clear that up.  I would venture a guess that not every real life torpedo attack had the planes on the deck the entire way.    

The typical cruise alt for TBD while searching for their target was 4500 feet. The 5K cap keeps people honest, and historically accurate.

[Triton28]

It doesnt have to be as easy to kill as a Kate. Just SLOWER and easIER to kill than a TBM. 2 F4F's can wipe out 10 B5N's in 2 minutes. 20 A6M2's take 10 mins to kill 15 TBM-3's.

Being fast and well armed for a torpedo bomber is still like being the tallest midget.  

If you agree that the TBD was likely a good bit tougher than the Kate (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that the TBM is the toughest of the 3), and that ruggedness is a traditional American Navy plane trait, that must be considered (and heavily) when aiming to be as accurate as possible with the setup.