Author Topic: TBD performance FACTS wanted  (Read 1563 times)

Offline pops57

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TBD performance FACTS wanted
« on: June 01, 2013, 08:51:10 AM »
High all. The discussion about subbing the IJN torp. plane for the TBM got my curious up about the actual performance numbers of the TBD, so I went looking. Facts were being thrown out about the TBD from one end of the perf. spectrum to the other. What could it really do, what were it's actual Perf. numbers, how was it actually armored? Anyone else interested? Here is what I have found so far. Claims were made that it was tough and well armored like the TBM but the only text I found states it had non self sealing fuel tanks and no mention of armor for the crew, only that the seats were formed out of aluminum, if this is correct it falls way short of the TBM. There is no mention of a bullet resistant windscreen and I've found no pictures showing a thick windscreen. Claims were made that it could dive bomb at nearly twice it's top level speed, I have not found anything to back that up. I found text that claims glide bombing at about  200 mph was done. The only VNE I've found claims 208mph for it's VNE, that seems unlikely given it's 206 top level speed at 8k. It had one 30 cal. tail gun and one 30 or 50 cal forward firing gun as standard armament. Less than 800 fpm rate of climb, 100 to 130 mph max cruise loaded with a torp. I did find a link to a declassified pilots handbook for operations but it is 18 bucks and I'm not sure I'm that curious. Anyone out there no the facts or were to find them? Do any of the things I've found reflect true or false? pops57

Offline Bino

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 09:45:20 AM »
This link at the USN Naval Historical Center confirms the lack of self-sealing fuel tanks, but makes no mention of armor. Top speed when loaded with a torpedo is listed as 207 MPH at 8,000 feet.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/ac-usn22/t-types/tbd.htm


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Offline Arlo

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 10:19:08 AM »
"The Devastator proved to be a death trap for its crews: slow and scarcely maneuverable, with light defensive weaponry and poor armor relative to the weapons of the time; its speed on a glide-bombing approach was a mere 200 mph (320 km/h), making it easy prey for fighters and defensive guns alike. The aerial torpedo could not even be released at speeds above 115 mph (185 km/h).[18] Torpedo delivery requires a long, straight-line attack run, making the aircraft vulnerable, and the slow speed of the aircraft made them easy targets for the Mitsubishi A6M Zeros."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TBD_Devastator

^ Jackson and Doll 1973, p. 5.

^ Buell 1987, p. 494



A: The R-1830 variant of Pratt & Whitney's well-known Twin Wasp powered the TBD.
This powerplant was also widely used in other types, such as the C-47 Skytrain.    

B: Devastators were manned by three crew: a pilot, navigator/torpedo officer and gunner.
The latter sat at the rear of the cockpit "glasshouse" and fired a 7.62-mm (.30-cal.) machine gun.
A forward firing machine gun was also fitted in the inner port wing.    

C: Though fitted on the production line with wing flotation bags to allow the crew time to escape
the aircraft if it ditched, these were removed in wartime. This ensured that the TBD would sink,
taking its advanced Norden bombsight with it.    

D: While the TBD boasted a powered wing folding mechanism, this lacked sufficient power to move
the wings in a strong cross wind, necessitating a 'group effort' by ground handlers.

Crew: Three: Pilot, Torpedo
Officer/Navigator,
Radioman/Gunner
Length: 35 ft
Wingspan: 50 ft
Height: 15 ft 1 in
Wing area: 422 ft²
Empty weight: 6,182 lb
Loaded weight: 9,862 lb
Max takeoff weight: 10,194 lb
Powerplant: 1× Pratt & Whitney
R-1830-64 Twin Wasp radial
engine, 900 hp

Performance
Maximum speed: 206 mph
Range: 435 mi with
Mk XIII Torpedo, 716 mi
with 1,000 lb bombs
Service ceiling: 19,700 ft
Rate of climb: 720 ft/min

Armament
Either
1 × 0.30 in (7.62 mm) machine
gun forward-firing or
1 × 0.50 in (12.7 mm) machine
gun forward-firing
1 × 0.30 in (7.62 mm) machine
gun in rear cockpit
(later increased to two)
Either
1 × 1,000 lb bomb or
1 × Mark XIII torpedo - 1,200 lb

"The Douglas TBD Devastator was the first all-metal low-wing monoplane with retractable landing gear
to go into service in the U.S. Navy. However, although advanced at the time that occur- red, this sturdy
and reliable torpedo plane was virtually out-of-date when the war broke out and it found itself fighting with
a clear disadvantage compared to the fierce fighters of the enemy. Proof of its being obsolete was dramatically
provided on June 4, 1942, during the Battle of Midway: 15 TBD-1 s that had taken off from the aircraft carrier
Hornet to attack the Japanese naval force were literally wiped out (only one managed to return to the carrier)
by antiaircraft fire and by the violent counterattack of the Mitsubishi A6M Zeros, against which they were practically defenseless."

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/Aircraft/Douglas-Devastator.html

TBD Devastator - Operational History:

"The TBD-1 entered service in late 1937 when USS Saratoga's VT-3 transitioned off TG-2s. Other US Navy torpedo squadrons also switched to the TBD-1 as aircraft became available. Though revolutionary at introduction, aircraft development in the 1930s progressed at a dramatic rate. Aware that the TBD-1 was already being eclipsed by new fighters in 1939, BuAer issued a request for proposals for the aircraft's replacement. This competition resulted in the selection of the Grumman TBF Avenger. While TBF development progressed, the TBD remained in place as the US Navy's frontline torpedo bomber.

In 1941, the TBD-1 officially received the nickname "Devastator." With the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor that December, the Devastator began to see combat action. Taking part in attacks on Japanese shipping in the Gilbert Islands in February 1942, TBDs from USS Enterprise had little success. This was largely due to problems associated with the Mark 13 torpedo. A delicate weapon, the Mark 13 required the pilot to drop it from no higher than 120 ft. and no faster than 150 mph making the aircraft extremely vulnerable during its attack.

Once dropped, the Mark 13 had issues with running too deep or simply failing to explode on impact. For torpedo attacks, the bombardier was typically left on the carrier and the Devastator flew with a crew of two. Additional raids that spring saw TBDs attack Wake and Marcus Islands, as well as targets off New Guinea with mixed results. The highlight of the Devastator's career came during the Battle of the Coral Sea when the type aided in sinking the light carrier Shoho. Subsequent attacks against the larger Japanese carriers the next day proved fruitless.

The TBD's final engagement came the following month at the Battle of Midway. By this time attrition had become an issue with the US Navy's TBD force and Rear Admirals Frank J. Fletcher and Raymond Spruance possessed only 41 Devastators aboard their three careers when the battle began on June 4. Locating the Japanese fleet, Spruance ordered strikes to begin immediately and dispatched 39 TBDs against the enemy. Becoming separated from their escorting fighters, the three American torpedo squadrons were the first to arrive over the Japanese.

Attacking without cover, they suffered horrific losses to Japanese A6M "Zero" fighters and anti-aircraft fire. Though failing to score any hits, their attack pulled the Japanese combat air patrol out of position, leaving the fleet vulnerable. At 10:22 AM, American SBD Dauntless dive bombers approaching from the southwest and northeast struck the carriers Kaga, Soryu, and Akagi. In less than six minutes they reduced the Japanese ships to burning wrecks. Of the 39 TBDs sent against the Japanese, only 5 returned. In the attack, USS Hornet's VT-8 lost all 15 aircraft with Ensign George Gay being the only survivor.

In the wake of Midway, the US Navy withdrew its remaining TBDs and squadrons transitioned to the newly arriving Avenger. The 39 TBDs remaining in the inventory were assigned to training roles in the United States and by 1944 the type was no longer in the US Navy's inventory. Often believed to have been a failure, the TBD Devastator's principal fault was simply being old and obsolete. BuAir was aware of this fact and the aircraft's replacement was en route when the Devastator's career ingloriously ended."

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwariiaircraft/p/World-War-Ii-Tbd-Devastator.htm


Douglas TBD Devastator
USN Torpedo Bomber

By Stephen Sherman, Dec. 2009. Updated January 26, 2012.

The TBD torpedo bomber entered service in the mid-1930s as one of the most modern aircraft
in the U.S. Navy's inventory. By 1941 however, it had become obsolete.

The Devastator was a terrible airplane that was slaughtered in combat when not heavily escorted
by Wildcats. At Midway, 37 of 41 were wiped out in about an hour of fighting, most notably Torpedo
Squadron Eight. Most of the crews were killed. After this fiasco, the TBD was quickly replaced with
the TBF Avenger, a much better aircraft.

Due to the nature of the torpedoes the Devastator carried, the pilots had to fly at 50 feet and slower
than 100 mph in order to successfully release their load. If the torpedo was dropped from a higher altitude
or from a faster speed, it would porpoise, break in two, or propel itself straight down towards the ocean floor.

The TBD with a torpedo slung under the fuselage had a maximum speed of 125 mph at sea level. With a full
ordnance load, the plane could barely achieve 14,000 feet.

Type: Torpedo bomber
Introduced: 1937
Length: 35 ft.
Wingspan: 50.3 Ft.
Crew: 2-3
Weight Empty: 6,182 lbs.
Weight Loaded: 9,862 lbs.

Power Plant: One 900 hp. Pratt and Whitney R-1830-G4 Twin Wasp Radial.
Armament: One .50-caliber or two .30-caliber machine guns in the rear and one .50-caliber machine gun in the nose.
Ordnance: One torpedo or up to 1,000 pounds of bombs

Top Speed: 206 mph
Range: 916 miles
Ceiling: 19,500 ft.
Climb Rate: 700 ft./min.
Maneuverability: Fair
Firepower: Poor
Durability: Good

Source: Defunct Geocities website, Air War Over the Pacific
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 10:30:05 AM by Arlo »

Offline HighTone

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 11:46:04 AM »
So I think we have found an American plane that has almost no chance of being added. TBM is a good substitute.   :x

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Offline Arlo

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2013, 11:48:51 AM »
So I think we have found an American plane that has almost no chance of being added. TBM is a good substitute.   :x

So you'd be good with flying a TBM in a switch side frame, I take.  :aok

Offline HighTone

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2013, 01:00:14 PM »
So you'd be good with flying a TBM in a switch side frame, I take.  :aok


I'd fly whatever the CiC told me to. I would rather stay in the Kate though.  :aok

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Offline Arlo

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 01:38:05 PM »

I'd fly whatever the CiC told me to. I would rather stay in the Kate though.  :aok

There's the Kamikaze spirit!  :D

Ok ... frame switch and the axis playing allies elect to fly kates alongside the SBDs and F4Fs.  :aok

Offline CAP1

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 07:17:59 PM »
here's a way to look at it here in ah.

 when used as a torpedo bomber its pilot has to do a number of fairly stupid things in order to complete its mission.

1)under combat conditions, its pilot MUST get below 200ft asl. this is bad. no maneuvering room. bad bad idea.
2)under combat conditions, and while it is below 200ft asl, its pilot MUST reduce airspeed to below 200kts. now, no maneuvering room, and no maneuvering speed. crappy acceleration.
3)under combat conditions, while below 200ft asl, and below 200kts, its pilot must now fly straight and level. slow and low in a combat situation, ESPECIALLY in an aircraft that accelerates like a dead slug is a very very bad idea.

its rear guns suck. it is very very easy to attack at this point.

4)under combat conditions, while below 200ft asl, while below 200kts, while flying straight, in an aircraft that accelerats like a dead slug, the pilot can aim, and drop his torpedo, then firewall the throttle. if he hasn't been blasted outta the cartoon sky as yet, and survives the ships aaa, he may in a matter of only minutes get back up to somewhere over 200kias.

  :aok
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Offline pops57

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 08:48:54 PM »
From what I see here the TBD made 180kts max. level flight loaded with a torp and the drop speed on the early American mk13s was 115mph or 150mph whichever is correct, so it would be down around 100 to 130 kts max drop speed which appears to be it's max cruise speed range. Does any one know which speed is correct for the mk13 drop or are they both correct but for early and later models? The IJN bird looks to make 204knts max level loaded and the TBM 227knts loaded. Did the IJN torpedo have similar drop speed limits? I'm still out there searching for a VNE for the TBD, no luck yet.

Offline Shifty

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 09:12:31 PM »
Plane type and actual torpedo model really makes no difference as far as the game goes. The difference that counts is AH modeled Axis torpedo vs AH modeled Allied torpedo.
Your attack envelope depends on which torpedo you're using more than which plane you're flying.

Type          American                      
Speed       (Slow Type) 39 mph
Range        4,570 yards
Run Time    4 mins    
 
Drop Altitudes

960' @ 200 mph
500' @ 225 mph
<200' @ < 250 mph

Type     German/Japanese
Speed       (Fast Type) 47 mph  
Range        2,300 yards
Run Time    1 min 40 secs

Drop Altitudes

460' @ 175 mph
300' @  185 mph
<200' @ < 200 mph


Read more on it at the Trainers Site

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/torpedoes/torpedoes.htm
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 09:16:33 PM by Shifty »

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Offline pops57

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 10:22:22 PM »
Thanks shifty

Offline Bino

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2013, 09:11:54 AM »
According to the USN, some of the details of how AH models IJN aerial torpedoes are incorrect:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,348653.0.html


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Offline Shifty

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2013, 10:07:29 AM »
According to the USN, some of the details of how AH models IJN aerial torpedoes are incorrect:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,348653.0.html


I wonder if AH even models the torpedo as Japanese, could it be modeled after a German Torpedo?

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Offline FiLtH

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2013, 12:32:15 AM »
They did look cool though carrying a torp.

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Offline perdue3

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Re: TBD performance FACTS wanted
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2013, 01:07:28 PM »
Where is Butcher with his armor argument?
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