Ki-84's Most Absurd Feature

[nrshida]

Please do something about the Ki-84's most absurd feature.

If the random detaching of control surfaces at high speed are supposed to model poor manufacture, then at least make the ailerons and elevators detach one at a time. You can hardly imply that Nakajima's quality control was bad enough to cause the pivot points to unwittingly fail completely and yet imply that unconnected sets fail at exactly the same threshold causing pairs to detach together.

I can find nothing in the literature to indicate this was a problem with the real aircraft and have a test report which already shows a Hayate going faster than our fail speed with no problem.

[RedBull1]

Easy fix: Grab yourself a 109..

I mean it's german, and










I don't know if you guys have that advert over there, but the Americans will probably get the reference at least

[nrshida]

I hate to be the small boy explaining about the Emperor's new clothes, but that opinion is in face more due to modern marketing and manufacturing techniques (which are basically international). German engineering was / is also imperfect, especially in that period.

I don't mind if poor manufacture is modelled, but let's have it modelled equally across the board...

[Franz Von Werra]

my 190a8, at speed, I pull back and snap BOTH my wing tips, every time, and its made with metal wings!
I mean we get the stall and flip over to the left if we pull back at slow to medium speeds but the wings still break at high speed?
Metal > Fabric!!! Is 190a8's extra weight for nothing or what?!?! Or do they have swimming pools in the back of the plane?
And yeah my 109 wings break too!
Seems 190s have the weight but not the gain from it!

Kurt Tank "built light and strong, keeping stuff simple and accessible for maintenance." <-- said an English Documentary guy.

German engineering was imperfect?
So you're one of those guys that say that the phrase 'German Engineering' is because they invented the icecream scooper thing?

Spitty are supposed to have delicate wings, some say shoot the wings, but they don't break at high speed? German stuff doesn't have the 'luv' its the allied guys that do me thinks!

[pipz]

I don't know if you guys have that advert over there, but the Americans will probably get the reference at least

Your going to love my nuts! 

[nrshida]

my 190a8, at speed, I pull back and snap BOTH my wing tips, every time, and its made with metal wings!
.
.
.
And yeah my 109 wings break too!

Perhaps you should consider your transitions or investigate stick scaling. I've never broken a wing off anything.

German engineering was imperfect?

Demonstrably.

So you're one of those guys that say that the phrase 'German Engineering' is because they invented the icecream scooper thing?

No I'm one of those guys who has studied the topic extensively. Why don't you read about the foundation of the Bauhaus and just skip through the decades afterwards quickly.

Just for fun, who's quote is this: "After the war is over I'm going to buy a British radio set - then at least I'll own something that has always worked"?



Anyway, back on topic, AH Hayate control surface modelling...

[Franz Von Werra]

Can we get a few players to do the tests please?
Training arena, 30k field, put plane in dive, get to 'very fast' or some speed, 500mph? and pull back hard!

Half the planes will break, half wont! and its repeatable!

[nrshida]

The planes have different structural limits & I believe that is modelled on data.

Franz repeat your experiment with both harsh stick inputs and then progressive transitions. That would be interesting for you.

[pervert]

That seems to be the problem there isn't a wide range of knowledge on the ki84 personally I think its deeply overmodelled, relative to the rest of the plane set.

[nrshida]

That seems to be the problem there isn't a wide range of knowledge on the ki84 personally I think its deeply overmodelled, relative to the rest of the plane set.

Sorry to differ with you Perv, but it might be the case that it is actually undermodelled if you study the literature. I think we have a conglomeration of models, or a performance which half-reflects manufacturing issues.

If the manufacturing issues are a factor I'd like to know why they aren't depicted in other aircraft too.

The control surface random detachment seems like a good place to start.





 

[Karnak]

Spitty are supposed to have delicate wings, some say shoot the wings, but they don't break at high speed?

They most certainly do.  You must never fly anything that isn't German, not even to test it.  The Spitfire Mk XIV folds both entire wings extremely easily.  The other Spits don't fold quite as easily, but they still do.  It is almost like the Spit XIV doesn't have its stronger wing modeled.

As to the metal wings quip, other than the Mossies what in AH doesn't have metal wings?

[ink]

Sorry to differ with you Perv, but it might be the case that it is actually undermodelled if you study the literature. I think we have a conglomeration of models, or a performance which half-reflects manufacturing issues.

If the manufacturing issues are a factor I'd like to know why they aren't depicted in other aircraft too.

The control surface random detachment seems like a good place to start.





 

I was gonna say almost the exact same thing.....

[gyrene81]

my 190a8, at speed, I pull back and snap BOTH my wing tips, every time, and its made with metal wings!
I mean we get the stall and flip over to the left if we pull back at slow to medium speeds but the wings still break at high speed?
Metal > Fabric!!! Is 190a8's extra weight for nothing or what?!?! Or do they have swimming pools in the back of the plane?
And yeah my 109 wings break too!
Seems 190s have the weight but not the gain from it!

Kurt Tank "built light and strong, keeping stuff simple and accessible for maintenance." <-- said an English Documentary guy.

German engineering was imperfect?
So you're one of those guys that say that the phrase 'German Engineering' is because they invented the icecream scooper thing?

Spitty are supposed to have delicate wings, some say shoot the wings, but they don't break at high speed? German stuff doesn't have the 'luv' its the allied guys that do me thinks!

lmao...too funny i can't even think of what to say that would be understood. there are several cartoon world and real world reasons you don't put the types of aircraft modelled in aces high into steep aoa 500+mph dives and haul back on the stick...i don't suppose the concepts of structural stress, acoustic fatigue and gravitational force came to mind.

[EagleDNY]

G-Force is a constant - if you pull huge G's coming out of a dive, you can make the wings fold up on pretty much anything.   The only question becomes whether the monkey at the controls is still conscious when it happens.   

I fly the Ki-84 a lot, so I know of the shed control surfaces feature.  The times I have shed my control surfaces, yes - I have been pushing the speed envelope a bit hard.   I think the problem really is that without a force-feedback on my joystick I have no way to feel when the "flutter" starts.  Maybe a good solution would be to have HTC enable the "stress metal" sound when you get near to the rip speed of any aircraft - then it becomes up to the pilot to ease off a bit.

I have not seen any actual test data that shows this as a "feature" of the Ki-84 either.     

[Saxman]

Sorry to differ with you Perv, but it might be the case that it is actually undermodelled if you study the literature. I think we have a conglomeration of models, or a performance which half-reflects manufacturing issues.

Do keep in mind that most of the test data IIRC comes from post-war testing of captured birds using 100 octane US AvGas. Which the Ki-84 never used. So yeah, of COURSE there's going to be a massive performance difference.