Author Topic: War is hell, for all involved.  (Read 3778 times)

Offline Squire

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2013, 02:34:19 PM »
Only the luckiest aircrew made it to those those English Channel rescue bouys. Death from drowning or exposure, especially October-June was the lot of most not picked up by Air-Sea rescue or that were found by a ship.
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Offline smoe

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2013, 03:44:46 PM »
Even harder to swallow is it was more then likely struck from a bomb falling from above it, meaning someone was in the wrong place in the formation.

Yuck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lioRCye2Dug

(Image removed from quote.)

It was struck by a falling bomb. I have seen other video footage in recent History Channel episodes that show the falling bomb. That video may have the bomb edited out. My guess is a frame or two may have been removed.

Offline smoe

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2013, 03:54:53 PM »
Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.


You're right, I don't ever remember seeing any Japanese chutes myself.

Also, have to remember that the Japanese planes lacked armor and other stuff. Our 50 cal bullets would rip right through most Japanese planes. The Japanese planes were designed for light weight and turning.


Offline Karnak

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2013, 04:09:04 PM »
You're right, I don't ever remember seeing any Japanese chutes myself.

Also, have to remember that the Japanese planes lacked armor and other stuff. Our 50 cal bullets would rip right through most Japanese planes. The Japanese planes were designed for light weight and turning.


You can't be that broad in the subject.  There is a lot more detail to it than that.

The Ki-84, for example, has about as much armor as a P-51D, whereas the A6M2 has no protection at all.  The H8K2 has more armor than a B-17G.

As has been referenced repeatedly in this very thread, the Japanese had parachutes and used them.
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Offline Fud

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2013, 04:16:36 PM »
I remember seeing German gun cam footage as they were pinging a B-17 with cannons and you could see chunks flying off the 17 with no re-action from either the ball or tail gunners....War is Hell..
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Offline Karnak

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2013, 05:24:54 PM »
This a quote I often think on, in relation to those of us who play at war as a hobby:
Quote
"There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all Hell."
-William Tecumseh Sherman
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2013, 05:45:01 PM »
Might could be. I know most, at least, refused to even wear them. I cant ever remember a photo of a jap pilot parachuting.



Some chose either not to wear parachutes or not use them for the reasons Shifty already mentioned.  It was very common for IJN and IJAF pilots not to use them because of two major factors, it restricted movement in the cockpit during combat and a lot of the times the Japanese pilots were flying over or near enemy bases and being captured was not an option for them.

In the IJN (and probably in the IJAF as well), every pilot was given a parachute and urged, though not ordered to wear them.  In some cases, base commanders made the decision and ordered their pilots to wear parachutes.

This is a comment about the use of parachutes in the IJN by Saburō Sakai.
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In 1942, none of our fighter planes carried pilot armor, nor did the Zeros have self-sealing fuel tanks, as did the American planes. As the enemy pilots soon discovered, a burst of their 50-caliber bullets into the fuel tanks of a Zero caused it to explode violently in flames. Despite this, in those days not one of our pilots flew with parachutes. This has been misinterpreted in the West as proof that our leaders were disdainful of our lives, that all Japanese pilots were expendable and regarded as pawns rather than human beings. This was far from the truth. Every man was assigned a parachute; the decision to fly without them was our own and not the result of orders from higher headquarters. Actually, we were urged, although not ordered, to wear the parachutes in combat. At some fields the base commander insisted that chutes be worn, and those men had no choice but to place the bulky packs in their planes. Often, however, they never fastened the straps, and used the chutes only as seat cushions.

We had little use for these parachutes, for the only purpose they served for us was to hamstring our cockpit movements in a battle. It was difficult to move our arms and legs when encumbered by chute straps. There was another, and equally compelling, reason for not carrying the chutes into combat. The majority of our battles were fought with enemy fighters over their own fields. It was out of the question to bail out over enemy territory, for such a move meant a willingness to be captured, and nowhere in the Japanese military code or in the traditional Bushido (Samurai code) could one find the distasteful words “Prisoner of War.” There were no prisoners. A man who did not return from combat was dead. No fighter pilot of any courage would ever permit himself to be captured by the enemy. It was completely unthinkable ...

This is an account of a US sailor onboard USS Montpelier during a Japanese raid near Bougainville, November 3,1943.
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A few Japs parachuted when they were hit but a few sailors and Marines on the 20 mm. opened up on the ones in the chutes and when they hit the water they were nothing but a piece of meat cut to ribbons.

This was the first time I saw Jap pilots use parachutes. Someone said that the Japs don't use parachutes.

During the last months of the war when US fighters started to conduct increased fighter raids and sweeps over the Japanese homelands, a lot of US pilots reported Japanese pilots bailing out in their parachutes instead of engaging in combat.  It's just an unsupported myth that most Japanese pilots didn't bail out.

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« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 06:05:44 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2013, 05:49:40 PM »
I remember seeing German gun cam footage as they were pinging a B-17 with cannons and you could see chunks flying off the 17 with no re-action from either the ball or tail gunners....War is Hell..

Odds are, based on the position of the ball turret in that film that the gunners may already have bailed or were sadly dead.  To get out of the turret the ball turret gunner had to point the guns down so he could exit into the fuselage.  Those guns are pointed straight down so he's most likely out both of the turret and the plane.

Nasty film to watch though. 
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Offline Shifty

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2013, 05:59:00 PM »
You're right, I don't ever remember seeing any Japanese chutes myself.

That is probably because their chutes were at their aircraft. There are photos everywhere of Japanese pilots wearing their parchute harness which attaches to their chute. Not to mentionthe majority
of Japanese Navy pilot pictures you see the guys are wearing the Japanese version of the Mae West. Why would they wear a life jacket but not a chute? Were they thinking.. The hell with it if the fall doesn't kill me I'll swim home?

Japanese Army pilots clearly in parachute harness.



Japanese Navy pilots with parachute harness and life jackets.



« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 06:01:26 PM by Shifty »

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2013, 06:11:23 PM »


Japanese Army pilots clearly in parachute harness.



Here is a gunner with a parachute.


One of the most prized war booty an Allied soldier could get his hands on in the Pacific was a Japanese parachute because it was made with the finest silk at the time.

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Offline RotBaron

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2013, 07:09:38 PM »

I do believe , overall, that Allied leaders values the lives of their men more then Axis ones did. Most of all the Japs. Most of all the officers of the IJA, who treated their men as little better then dogs. Of all the military services of the time the IJA was a study in institutionalized brutality starting the day the men entered service until the day the day they would be ordered to die a useless death. Many Jap, German, and Soviet soldiers were not even nationals and little more then slaves who were forced to fight at threat of death from their masters. How much you think there own leadership gave a damn about them?



I'm not trying to start any argument here, but:

IMO you are discounting other nations cultural differences and applying your cultural view point to how they should have seen it.

I would agree with you in large re: what you stated about the Russians, but not in every sense. I disagree wholeheartedly regarding German matters and their pilots, however in some cases and at some points it may apply to the Wehrmacht and probably the Volksturm.

My area of study was in the European Theatre, so I can't speak from an informed position about the IEJ.




OP, thanks for the picture, it does inspire contemplation.

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« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 07:18:22 PM by RotBaron »
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2013, 05:55:08 AM »
Quote
I would agree with you in large re: what you stated about the Russians, but not in every sense. I disagree wholeheartedly regarding German matters and their pilots, however in some cases and at some points it may apply to the Wehrmacht and probably the Volksturm.

I didnt say anything about German pilots.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2013, 08:20:14 AM »
Rich46yo,

You are right and you are wrong.  You are right in a general sense, but you are wrong in how big you make the difference out to be.  There was a large difference, no doubt, but you make it out to have been even larger than it was.
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Offline RotBaron

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2013, 08:39:49 PM »
I didnt say anything about German pilots.

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Offline bj229r

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Re: War is hell, for all involved.
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2013, 09:45:05 PM »


I had a day to spend in DC last summer, spent most of it wandering around Arlington. This grave marker struck me...all these kids died at once, in one plane (B25...B26? dunno) Tried googling some history, found an event in Italy of some note, have no idea if it was these guys
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