Author Topic: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?  (Read 3747 times)

Offline artik

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2013, 01:20:19 PM »
Add in a modern F-15E, both clean and with CFTs.  58,000 lbs thrust, empty weight around 37,000 lbs, internal fuel only about 12,000 lbs and "clean" (no external fuel) air to air weapons weight of another 1500 lbs.  So it'll take off in butt-kicking config with 58,000 lbs thrust weighing only 51,000 lbs, and it can still be on station an hour later weighing only 45,000 lbs after burning off just half its fuel.

Small notes also F-15E has more powerful engines in is much heavier and flies only with CFT for combat missions.

Also F-15E is the newest it is more attack aircraft than air superiority one. F-15C were covering F-15E in dessert storm that were performing ground attacks.

I want to add a side note, at least IAF Eagles and actually Falcons as well fly with DASH helmet that gives and important edge over usual F-15 also the IAF has upgraded avionics making it nothing like "plain" F-15C - it is basically F-15E in terms of latest modern avionics but F-15C in terms of performance.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2013, 01:31:04 PM »
Small note, all T/W calculations take loaded weight - at least in some references it says explicitly - with full internal fuel and A/A weapons.

Also most of A/A ammunition is not that heavy, it may change the numbers a little but it would change them for F-35 as well.

Note: it is fully reasonable to manage A2A combat without bombs and fuel tanks


Weight isn't the important factor, but drag. Even with only A2A missiles none of those top speeds can be achieved, except for the F-22 and F-35 with internal stores only. The F-35 carries more internal fuel than the F-16's total fuel capacity with all three droptanks on.
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Offline artik

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2013, 01:48:13 PM »
Weight isn't the important factor, but drag. Even with only A2A missiles none of those top speeds can be achieved, except for the F-22 and F-35 with internal stores only. The F-35 carries more internal fuel than the F-16's total fuel capacity with all three droptanks on.

1. The T/W ratio uses loaded - not maximal takeoff weight. Of course if you take F-15 with full CFT it would have much lower T/W ratio but it is not the case.
2. About the drag, it may be improved but take a look on numbers - there are very few fighters in list (including old ones) that have speed less than Mach 2. So how lower would it be with missiles?
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline artik

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2013, 01:55:14 PM »
Small additional note,

If Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) and all the "situational awareness avionics" would be so important addon, why just not to take some older aircraft and put the new avionics inside - new radar, new ECM, new displays, new networking - to the existing frames and you get super aircraft (may be not stealth) but as good as any modern fighter?

Actually it is quite a common practice. Romania uses upgraded MiG-21 with the state of the art avionics and many other countries still fly older Mirages and F-5E Tigers upgraded with modern equipment - GPS, glass display, modern missiles, HMD and new radar - and this is much cheaper than buy a latest F-16...

But yet, if budget allows the new aircraft is preferred over upgrade. Why? Because avionics is important but not everything.

It is like have an external view in SBD... It gives you much better awareness of who is going to shut you down  :x
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 01:59:13 PM by artik »
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2013, 02:15:41 PM »
Top speed is normally listed as in clean configuration. Add pylons and A2A missiles and I'd be surprised if the F-16 is faster than an F-35 with internal stores at Mach 1.6. With drop tanks the F-16 is subsonic. The F-18E's  top speed is Mach 1.5 with two AMRAAM and two Sidewinders, and that is only in a very narrow altitude window.

On the other hand, the F-35 can go Mach 1.6 while carrying four AMRAAM or two JDAMS + two AMRAAM and its full load of fuel (18,480 lbs).
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline artik

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2013, 02:23:01 PM »
Top speed is normally listed as in clean configuration. Add pylons and A2A missiles and I'd be surprised if the F-16 is faster than an F-35 with internal stores at Mach 1.6. With drop tanks the F-16 is subsonic. The F-18E's  top speed is Mach 1.5 with two AMRAAM and two Sidewinders, and that is only in a very narrow altitude window.

On the other hand, the F-35 can go Mach 1.6 while carrying four AMRAAM or two JDAMS + two AMRAAM and its full load of fuel (18,480 lbs).


1. If you run or try to catch - you drop tanks... so it is not really the factor.
2. Note if you compare F-35 to F-18... Than ok it is somewere at the bottom of the list. It is far from being the state of the art. Ahh BTW we are talking about F-35A - in case of C it is even more terrible. Also if you look on up-to-date aircraft like Typhoon, it is Mach 2 with A2A weapons
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2013, 02:32:34 PM »
"... even more terrible ..."  :huh  Biased much? In what world is Mach 1.6 with missiles and bombs and 18,480 lbs of fuel "terrible". It is very, very good.

I'm comparing the F-35 to the planes it is supposed to replace, not the F-15, Su-35 and Typhoon. That F-18E I mentioned has nothing under its wings, only two Sidewinders on the wing tips and two AMRAAM semi-recessed under the fuselage. It has enough internal fuel for a very short supersonic dash.

"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2013, 03:35:34 PM »
Economists call this "Public Choice" theory/school. Street lingo, "crony capitalism." Political science, the German "f" word. In any case, this is about political job, not national defense. Eisenhower warned us against this.
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Offline eagl

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2013, 05:13:39 PM »
Small notes also F-15E has more powerful engines in is much heavier and flies only with CFT for combat missions.

Also F-15E is the newest it is more attack aircraft than air superiority one. F-15C were covering F-15E in dessert storm that were performing ground attacks.

I want to add a side note, at least IAF Eagles and actually Falcons as well fly with DASH helmet that gives and important edge over usual F-15 also the IAF has upgraded avionics making it nothing like "plain" F-15C - it is basically F-15E in terms of latest modern avionics but F-15C in terms of performance.


CFTs can be removed.  The reasons they are left on the plane have nothing to do with the aircraft capabilities.  It is 100% because of the assigned mission.  I guarantee you that if the need arose for more air defense aircraft, they'd drop the CFTs on the F-15Es and they'd suddenly have the same or better performance than F-15C/D, plus the WSO and targeting pod would add additional capabilities.  An F-15E without CFTs isn't that much heavier than an F-15C, more than compensated for by the bigger and more advanced engines and other capabilities.  That extra weight is in structural upgrades that make the F-15E extremely durable.  Although not intended to do so, a "clean" F-15E can take 12+ Gs without significant damage.  My squadron had 2 F-15Es take 12+ Gs and both were flying again within a few weeks after only minor repairs.  An F-15C pulling 12 Gs will literally fall apart inflight.

The F-15E is not "more" air to ground and therefore restricted to A/G missions.  If configured the same, it has 99.999999% of the air to air capabilities of an F-15C plus A/G capabilities.  Their use is entirely mission requirements based, not the capability of the aircraft or its systems.  Also, the F-15E can be fairly easily and quickly upgraded with additional capabilities due to the general purpose digital data bus connecting its avionics.

New build F-15Es could be a further leap in capability, both air ot air and air to ground, if necessary.  They'd all have the bigger engines and potentially greatly improved avionics, new displays, new hud, and the latest JHMCS helmets.  The gen 2 JHMCS helmets may even be able to be installed 2 per plane, vs. the 1 per plane now, due to different positioning sensor technology, but I don't have much info on that beyond what I read in some manufacturer ads...

A new build F-15E would have an extra 10,000 lbs of thrust over an F-15C and only weigh a few thousand pounds more.  And it would be vastly superior in terms of avionics.  The basic airframe remains a superb and very capable design, and only the billions upon billions of dollars we're pouring into the F-35 program is keeping us from refreshing our F-15C fleet with a few hundred new build F-15s based on the F-15Es currently in production.  Call it the "F-15F" or D+ or whatever you like, but the new aircraft would be better than current F-15Cs and would preserve US air to air dominance for another 30 years or more, at half the price of more F-22s or F-35s.  And if we suddenly needed more A/G assets, put on the CFTs and suddenly those new air defense F-15Es become full-up nuclear strike capable attack fighters.

Or drop the CFTs on the current F-15E fleet and give them to the guard/reserves for air defense, move one or two switches from the back up to the front cockpit so they can be flown solo, and buy new silent eagle F-15Es for the active duty force in a strike role as they are now, but more survivable in a modern air defense system.  That would be really good for overall national defense.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 05:19:29 PM by eagl »
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2013, 07:12:02 PM »
eagl, it's already been done. It's called the F-15SE - Silent Eagle.

It is an ultra-modern design with key outside features crafted in radar absorbant material. Frontal aspect the SE has the radar cross section similar to the F-22. Of course under-wing ordinance adds to radar cross section.

The F-15Silent Eagle was killed in the halls of Congress by the Raptor lobby.

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2013, 07:27:17 PM »
Please tell me your kidding. Did you just say the frontal aspect of the F15SE has the radar cross section similar to the F22? :bhead



eagl, it's already been done. It's called the F-15SE - Silent Eagle.

It is an ultra-modern design with key outside features crafted in radar absorbant material. Frontal aspect the SE has the radar cross section similar to the F-22. Of course under-wing ordinance adds to radar cross section.

The F-15Silent Eagle was killed in the halls of Congress by the Raptor lobby.

boo
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2013, 07:49:39 PM »
Please tell me your kidding. Did you just say the frontal aspect of the F15SE has the radar cross section similar to the F22? :bhead



I heard it has the frontal aspects of an F35.....an this is coming from aeronautical engineers that work at Boeing  :rolleyes:
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2013, 07:56:36 PM »
The Silent Eagle wasn't killed off. It's been exported, and it is really a product for the "second hand ally" market. The F-15SE frontal aspect RCS is nowhere near as small as the F-22 or F-35. It does however bring the F-15 into the 4.5 generation giving it a stealthy front on par with the Eurofighter and Rafale.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2013, 08:00:55 PM »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2013, 12:43:20 AM »
"Look guys!! im the size of a golf ball and flying at 40k at mach 2, now..they will never see me comin'.....wait..wait..somethings tracking me...tracking..tracking..tria ngulating.....incoming mach 6 projectiles!!!....eject eject eje.....-static-"

Drones, rail guns & laser systems have rendered stealth a very very moot point.

Stealth is SO 1990's.  :aok



 :P
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 12:45:20 AM by BaDkaRmA158Th »
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