Author Topic: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?  (Read 3749 times)

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2013, 02:05:11 AM »
It's unfortunate they sucked Aussie into the programme. Certainly possible it will go down as the biggest white elephant in aviation history. By the time it's delivered in numbers and combat ready  piloted planes could be in their last years of service with the rate of Drone development.

Personally I don't think the F22 is worth the cost either, will never be delivered in enough numbers to make a difference on any future battlefield.

But out of both programmes, there must be a few people making an absolute killing out of it in invoices.


<S>...-Gixer


Honestly, I think the issues with both planes is that they insist on having it be super duper fancy and high-tech. The F-15 and F-16 are both good fighters, why can't we use the F-22's inherently stealthier geometry to make a fighter using the materials in an F-16, instead of all that radar absorbent paint, and special coatings, and material as the standard.

Same with the F-35, instead of being a swing-role, it should be multirole. Keep the 20mm, but leave room for a 25mm. Leave fittings for external drop tanks, etc when stealth isn't mandatory. And above all, lighten that b***h up!
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline Gixer

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2013, 03:54:06 AM »
Besides performance or lack of, most ironic fact about all these future Generation 5 fighters, is that the only country in which can probably afford to field them in great enough numbers to make a difference on any future battlefield is probably China.


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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2013, 07:40:35 AM »
I heard it has the frontal aspects of an F35.....an this is coming from aeronautical engineers that work at Boeing  :rolleyes:

Well by all means DO repeat such an insane rumor without even trying to check it out.

You cant take a very unstealthy aircraft design and turn it into a stealth aircraft with a new coat of paint and a few mechanical changes. You can reduce its RCS somewhat , which was very large to begin with. Here is a diagram that gives some idea of max and min RCS of combat aircraft. The Chinese J-20 is still a decade away from being deployed and not even the Chinese know what kind of RCS it will have. Of course in all other areas of avionics and especially engines the Chinese are 1 to 2 generations away from western standards.

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Offline Gixer

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2013, 08:06:00 AM »
The Chinese J-20 is still a decade away from being deployed and not even the Chinese know what kind of RCS it will have. Of course in all other areas of avionics and especially engines the Chinese are 1 to 2 generations away from western standards.


But China has what the west doesn't, plenty of money to spend. Won't take them long to catch up and possibly leap ahead.


<S>...-Gixer

Offline bozon

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2013, 08:32:49 AM »
Dude you have to seriously learn about the avionics of the airframe before posting such stuff. Networked air space management is not a new concept. Here AN/APG-81 radar, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1NrFZddihQ&list=PLxYF2Xt6-JqGp-LHnQucGbtbQTBdsnFp2, http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/issue/feature/1145.html#.UdByPpyBrNU. Im sorry but I just cant go on with this.
I learned that in CGI the F-35 can beat anything. It is not the avionics OF the airframe - it's avionics IN the airframe. None of these systems require the F-35 airframe and can be installed in other planes.

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How in heck does Iraqi air differ from air elsewhere in the world? Air is air.
 :huh
The difference is the density of flying objects. When you have 300 miles of nothing ahead of you and something pops up on radar you can start lobbing BVR missiles at it like a trooper. If on the other hand you switch on the radar and find 100 aircrafts in 30x30 miles square, stacked from zero to 40,000 feet, not counting drones, other flying objects and EW interferences, then BVR is useless.

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Israel is, and has been since Yom Kippur War, actually since 1949, the biggest recipient of American foreign military aid of any other country. There is no reason to get into politics cause that is simply fact. It is also simply fact that the stat of Israel would not even exist if not for American assistance. Again...fact!
Dont get over yourself. Israel got little to nothing from the US till 1967 (that's already after 3 wars) when USSR started to give full support to the arab countries. Like everywhere in the world, if the USSR backs one side, the US immediately backs the other. Till 1967 France, Britain and the Czech were Israel's major weapon suppliers. Israel fought all its wars without the involvement of a single US soldier and the only war in which American resupply during the fighting made any difference was in 1973 and even then it only served to shorten the war by allowing Israel to go on the offensive immediately after managing to halt the Syrian and Egyptian advance.

Let me explain to you a little how military aid works. The US armed forces often do not buy enough expensive equipment to justify their economic viability to the industry. The US government cannot simply give money to the industry or buy it at inflated costs, therefore it creates an additional demand by distributing "aid" which is like coupons to its allies. This virtual money can only be spent in the US, so in practice the US government is giving real money to its industries to manufacture more weapons than the US needs, which are sent abroad.

A common twist is that with this coupons the allies are sold used US equipment and the US forces are buying new equipment instead. This is because the US usually do not sell latest technology to its allies unless they can get it elsewhere. If another supplier pops up and want to compete with the US suppliers, the US gov will sell these weapons via aid coupons in order to block the competition. One such examples involving Israel is the "Lavi" fighter. The Lavi was supposed to be a cheap fighter-attacker, but the project got ambitions and ended up as a direct competitor to the F-16. Certain US industries have put a large pressure on US gov to pressure Israel to cancel the project. They finally suceeded to win the IAF top brass to their side with a large deal of latest model F-16s (first C/D blocks if I remember). Project cancelled, threat removed. Isaeli industry has since learned to concentrate on technologies that the US does not have. This is why the IAF is still buying drones, radars, short range A2A missiles, some avionics and ECM, locally. The US then tries as much as possible to prevent sales of these technologies to other counties till they catch up in development - and then sell it themselves.

Alternatively, new technologies are sold as part of a political deal. The classic example is that for years the US refused to sell Patriots SAMs to Israel. They were eventually sold as part of a deal to keep Israel from retaliating against Iraqi Scuds during the 1st Gulf war (which would have dismantled the US-arab coalition). Weapon sales are authorized to Egypt and Saudi Arabia when ever their cooperation or appeasement on other matters is needed.

How does this relate to the F-35? The F-35 could have allowed Israel to escape this pattern and get a brand new weapon platform without the complications described above. The IAF wanted a lot of custom modifications and the Israeli industries could develop new gizmo's especially for it, which means guaranteed sales to the IAF and potential sales to the other partners involved. There were recent rumors that the US is refusing some of the agreed modifications at the production level and forcing Israel to buy it with the american equipment on it, which infuriated some industry people.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2013, 08:34:31 AM »
But China has what the west doesn't, plenty of money to spend. Won't take them long to catch up and possibly leap ahead.


<S>...-Gixer


I question this. You think the wealth disparity in the US is bad? The 1% have got NOTHING on the distribution of wealth in China. Something like 75% of their population lives on only $5 a day and has limited to no access to modern medical care and infrastructure.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline artik

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2013, 09:27:18 AM »
... Here is a diagram that gives some idea of max and min RCS of combat aircraft...
(Image removed from quote.)

And the sources are based on What? Seriously you have a public information in J-20 were most of this data is classified...

So I wouldn't quote such an image/reference too fast. Because it is unlikely based on some real data.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline Traveler

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2013, 11:01:08 AM »
Israel got little to nothing from the US till 1967 (that's already after 3 wars) when USSR started to give full support to the arab countries. Like everywhere in the world, if the USSR backs one side, the US immediately backs the other. Till 1967 France, Britain and the Czech were Israel's major weapon suppliers. Israel fought all its wars without the involvement of a single US soldier and the only war in which American resupply during the fighting made any difference was in 1973 and even then it only served to shorten the war by allowing Israel to go on the offensive immediately after managing to halt the Syrian and Egyptian advance.

Who do you think sold the equipment to France, Britain and Czech???????????

The US military industrial complex, that's who.  The US has been in the business of war and producing and selling war goods for the last hundred years.  It's our main export.  Look back over American history and find a 10 year period where America didn't have it's self involved in some type of shooting war.  And don't forget the war carried out on the original American, the American Indian.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2013, 11:06:06 AM »
The US military industrial complex does not produce French, British or Czech aircraft.




Not made in America™
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2013, 12:08:09 PM »
Historically the biggest threat to America is our debt and the poor cascading decisions we make to avoid the reality of it. The history of monetary policy, debt and empires is a very consistent one that goes back many thousands of years. It is as simple as A+B=C.

In any case, the Mirage is a pretty bird!!

boo
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2013, 12:38:11 PM »
Certainly is. One of my all time favorite aircraft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3QynY5aLz0
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2013, 12:51:43 PM »
"Look guys!! im the size of a golf ball and flying at 40k at mach 2, now..they will never see me comin'.....wait..wait..somethings tracking me...tracking..tracking..tria ngulating.....incoming mach 6 projectiles!!!....eject eject eje.....-static-"

Drones, rail guns & laser systems have rendered stealth a very very moot point.

Stealth is SO 1990's.  :aok



 :P

Please tell me you understand this:



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Offline Traveler

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2013, 12:56:37 PM »
The US military industrial complex does not produce French, British or Czech aircraft.


(Image removed from quote.)

Not made in America™

There are many multinational corporations that partake in the productions of military hardware world wide.  These smaller corporations are often owned in whole or in part by the leaders of the MIC.   They profit from both sides of a conflict.  They hold no allegiance to any one nation, their allegiance is only to the conflict and how best to profit from it.   
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2013, 01:01:13 PM »
The Swiss Alps the way god intended them to be seen: 600knts, upside down baby!

I'm not an expert on Mirages, and I know it is titled Mirage III but wasn't it the Mirage 2000 that had the canards?

I wonder how a good F-5E-II stacks up against those birds?

boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline GScholz

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Re: Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2013, 01:02:44 PM »
Next Traveler is going to say the Soviet Union was supplied by the US military industrial complex...  :noid
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."