Author Topic: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?  (Read 4044 times)

Offline Changeup

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2013, 01:51:03 PM »
BTW,  snipers were considered to be less than honorable warriors* even up to the Vietnam War and were sometimes outcast by their own US units. That is until the US saw how efficient Vietcong snipers were to both mortality and morale.  Reason:  it's not honorable to shoot people who can't defend themselves and don't know they're in danger.  Defenseless soldier or defenseless civilian makes no difference.  Unconventional warfare and terrorism have loosed the chains of the old honor codes and well they should.

Honor:  an abstract notion of respectability, Recogniton, and integrity.

In game, would you be respected, recognized in a positive light, and viewed as someone that plays the game with integrity if you did <insert dumb thing here>?

Vulch? HO? I have no idea but as I said earlier, people's definition of honor will change as they insert dumb things they do into the last part of the question.

*Carlos Hathcock "Whitefeather" by Roy F. Chandler, Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills by Charles Henderson
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Wiley

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2013, 01:59:49 PM »
cheating....

I agree with you as far as we are trying to kill each other in a game....and should play as such....but...... and its a big BUT..... getting the kill at any cost..... ganging one con with 10 or more...vulching for your kills.....

Agreed on the PM rants.  At long last, I finally get the difference between the way you guys look at it and the way I do.  To you, ganging and vulching is on par with cheating.  To me, it's not.  If that's all you do all the time, bad form for sure, but I don't consider it on par with bona fide cheating.  While I don't generally go out expressly looking to gang and vulch, if the opportunity presents itself and it makes sense for my side, yeah I will.

From within the context of the game, I just see it as the player's responsibility not to up into a vulch, and not to dive into a cloud of red alone and expect anything other than the obvious.

BTW,  snipers were considered to be less than honorable warriors* even up to the Vietnam War and were sometimes outcast by their own US units. That is until the US saw how efficient Vietcong snipers were to both mortality and morale.  Reason:  it's not honorable to shoot people who can't defend themselves and don't know they're in danger.  Defenseless soldier or defenseless civilian makes no difference.  Unconventional warfare and terrorism have loosed the chains of the old honor codes and well they should.

My humble opinion on violence in the real world is it shouldn't be used in half measures.  If things are at the point where violence is necessary, there's no such thing as overkill.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

JG11

Offline RedBull1

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2013, 02:01:57 PM »

*Carlos Hathcock "Whitefeather" by Roy F. Chandler, Marine Sniper: 93 Confirmed Kills by Charles Henderson
Now THERE'S a true badass  :aok

Honor? There are a lot of honorable people in this game, however hop into the Mains and you will find 6 not-so-honorable stick stirring HO-spraying gangers per every honorable player :D :uhoh
"There is absolutely no point discussing anything on the BBS, it's mostly populated by people who are right about everything, no one listens and everyone is just talking. People will argue over the shape of an egg." -Anonymous

Offline SPKmes

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2013, 02:06:04 PM »
Common courtesy .... something that has slowly been declining since the invent and anonymity of the sinternet.....
A slow but noticeable decline in social interaction skills due to not having to face and stand up to/by our convictions...many are the newer generation however it is not only...our generation ( I am 40)is also just as bad or worse in some cases... Sad sad side affect of a great tool for information and global contact.

it isn't just in game...but we spend so much time here we notice it
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 02:08:46 PM by SPKmes »

Offline ink

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2013, 02:15:08 PM »
Agreed on the PM rants.  At long last, I finally get the difference between the way you guys look at it and the way I do.  To you, ganging and vulching is on par with cheating.  To me, it's not.  If that's all you do all the time, bad form for sure, but I don't consider it on par with bona fide cheating.  While I don't generally go out expressly looking to gang and vulch, if the opportunity presents itself and it makes sense for my side, yeah I will.

From within the context of the game, I just see it as the player's responsibility not to up into a vulch, and not to dive into a cloud of red alone and expect anything other than the obvious.

My humble opinion on violence in the real world is it shouldn't be used in half measures.  If things are at the point where violence is necessary, there's no such thing as overkill.

Wiley.

I dont think vulching/ganging is anything close to actual code cheating.......just very pisspoor game play....but I do think if you are taking a field, then vulching is part of that...the vulchers that i don't like are the ones who do it just for kills....a game is about fairness and just shooting people down as they roll is anything but fair....but yes they should roll from elsewhere....

many have no problem with vulching, to me that is on the verge of dishonorable behavior(especially if thats all you do)...and in a game about Combat....

but I also know this is a game and people think it should be played differently...some only care about the war...some only care about the fight...some only care about tanking...bombing...ECT

me I am her for one reason only to kill MFers......but I don't vulch.......I want my opponent to have a chance...killing someone who has no chance is weak to me....and pathetic...but lots of players...that is the only way to get kills...... to me that is no victory at all....same as jumping on a con with 4 or 5 or more  :rolleyes: guys already trying to get him....

Offline Fruda

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2013, 02:28:55 PM »
I've been an active member for about three years. I consider myself a pretty decent member though I tend to get a bit mouthy every now and then. I detest vulching and HOing. I mostly keep to myself as my squad will note. My disclosure.

When I first signed on with AH it seemed very common to have frequent missions and it 'seemed' there was a great deal of squad action. This action seemed to create a more colloquial environment; both a camaraderie as well as a culture of behaviour and excellence. There were strong personalities in the game that lead by both example and voice.

Now it seems we have devolved a bit. We have lost that sense of high expectation, group play and high standard. I am not speaking of the quality of individual sticks but instead the sense of honor within the community. The former seems to be a the concept of noble savage encapsulated in Tarzan. What I am seeing now is nothing more than Lord of the Flies, where a horde of noobs voice the whole.

Am I wrong in this? If I am not, how do we restore a higher expectation within the community?

For starters, the prominence of key squads that set the tone needs to be restored. More than anything this seems to be what we need. It is not easy to build culture out of chaos but I think we need to do this. Possibly a better culture could help us retain the 2-weekers?

Thoughts? [Read: flame on...]

boo
JG 5

I see missions about as frequently as I used to, either posted or simply done on the fly. Also, HOing and vulching? Really? It's the MA; things happen. Do I get upset when somebody circling above dives down and kills me as I'm taking off? A bit, but not enough to complain. My line of thinking is, I knew there were enemy fighters above, so the chances of at least one of them diving in for a kill were pretty high. No big deal.

Head-on attacks are similar. Again, it's the MA, and people are going to do what they do regardless of anyone's "code". That being said, when I'm engaging an enemy and we're coming at each other face-to-face, I expect to be shot at. So, what do I do? I tend to fire and give either a hard left or hard right on the rudder and pull away. Sometimes, my bullets make contact and it's over in a flash; other times, the snap roll leads to a much longer fight; less frequently, a collision occurs.

Seriously, the rampant squeaking over the HO is ridiculous. Expect it, because it will happen. Failing to expect it leads me to believe those who complain either live in a fantasy land, or wish to do so.

Offline SPKmes

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2013, 02:39:31 PM »
same as jumping on a con with 4 or 5 or more  :rolleyes: guys already trying to get him....

This used to be fun.... but it has got ridiculous ... I remember getting ganged like this but having a fighting chance ( not much but some) as you wouldn't get all the head on front 11-2 front quarter shots ...people used to actually see this going on and refrain a little...these days it seems to be take all and every shot you can....If you managed to actually kill a couple another would take their place but it wasn't every last person jumping on because it was the last red guy to kill.... fun times..but finding this less often...even some squads I used to run into had decorum but have been in a slow decline to the abyss of grot.

Offline Arlo

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2013, 02:49:33 PM »
I agree entirely with your post, though it's really been an ongoing problem, with the primary cause of it's continuation and growth being players with the attitudes of the other respondents in the thread. They have no sense of honor in-game, and probably in RL also, their primary excuse or justification being, if there aren't specific rules against these things, it's ok to do them. If you can't exhibit honor in a freaking game, you're damned sure NOT going to exhibit honor in life.

I agree with the op. There has been a change, and I have said it before. As to the lead by example, that is how we got to where we are. Squads like the V dudes and other bish squads that only touch the fringes of the game and cut corners by using numbers to win the war instead of skill and good game play.

This is precisely why they DON'T exhibit honor...it's a game and it doesn't count towards their RL points totals.  It's meaningless so they behave meaninglessly.

In game, most want to win with as little risk and exposure as possible.  Then claim pwnage.  THAT is who they really are...

Some guys as expressed before want frequent missions and squad action that creates a more colloquial environment; both a camaraderie as well as a culture of behavior and excellence, group play etc. At the same time some squads like the V dudes and others are insulted and said to be using numbers to win the war instead of skill and good game play. How does that come together. You want squad operation and missions, but insult squads and players that do missions.

The crying about the channel 200 is something of a mystery to me. I have never used it and probably never will on the basis of what I have read in the forum. If you do not like what is going on in there, select another channel. There are supposed to be channels 200-299 to choose for chatting with friends from other countries and also an option to send private messages.

In my opinion the experienced guys should review their behavior first if they want a better gaming culture and retain the trial period players. I have seen some unjustified insults towards newcomers. In the interest of good gaming culture it might be a good idea to use less vox after having one too many refreshment drinks (not a frequent issue).

"I made up my mind that I was going to play a real man to the best of my ability. I felt many of the western stars of the twenties and thirties were too (gorram) perfect. They never drank or smoked. They never wanted to go to bed with a beautiful girl. They never had a fight. A heavy might throw a chair at them, and they just looked surprised and didn`t fight in this spirit. They were too (gorram) sweet and pure to be dirty fighters. Well, I wanted to be a dirty fighter if that was the only way to fight back. If someone throws a chair at you, hell, you pick up a chair and belt him right back. I was trying to play a man who gets dirty, who sweats sometimes, who enjoys kissing a gal he likes, who gets angry, who fights clean whenever possible but will fight dirty if he has to. You could say I made the western hero a roughneck." - John Wayne

~~~~~

The "What Would John Wayne Do" Test:

Play a real man. Be a real man. Think of it as an easier litmus test than this silly thread. Would John Wayne whine on CH200 that he just got face-shot or vulched? Would he run to the forum in a fit of angst or frustration and start a thread to form a gang to make the other players behave nicer or follow the 'Marquee of Queen's Berries'* rules?

If he was still around and took a liking to this game for a few minutes now and again ... and ... if he bothered to waste time in it typing ... it'd probably take on more of a 'True Grit' feel:

Ned Pepper: What's your intention? Do you think one on four is a dogfall?

Rooster Cogburn: I mean to kill you in one minute, Ned. Or see you hanged in Fort Smith at Judge Parker's convenience. Which'll it be?

Ned Pepper: I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.

Rooster Cogburn: Fill your hands, you (S of a B)!

~~~~~~~

The easier method would be a bit of Tuco's wisdom from 'The Good, The Bad and the Ugly' ....

Tuco (Eli Wallach): When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.

Well, it works for me.

As for players who don't fill channel 200 with whines or jeers or chest-thumping ego-prancing being part of this game's 'problem' when it comes to 'honor' ... well, that's about as inventive a blame as I've seen so far.  :D

"There's a lot of whiners in every crowd."

- R. Lee Ermey

* Marquess of Queensberry rules

Offline Changeup

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2013, 02:57:06 PM »
"I made up my mind that I was going to play a real man to the best of my ability. I felt many of the western stars of the twenties and thirties were too (gorram) perfect. They never drank or smoked. They never wanted to go to bed with a beautiful girl. They never had a fight. A heavy might throw a chair at them, and they just looked surprised and didn`t fight in this spirit. They were too (gorram) sweet and pure to be dirty fighters. Well, I wanted to be a dirty fighter if that was the only way to fight back. If someone throws a chair at you, hell, you pick up a chair and belt him right back. I was trying to play a man who gets dirty, who sweats sometimes, who enjoys kissing a gal he likes, who gets angry, who fights clean whenever possible but will fight dirty if he has to. You could say I made the western hero a roughneck." - John Wayne

~~~~~

The "What Would John Wayne Do" Test:

Play a real man. Be a real man. Think of it as an easier litmus test than this silly thread. Would John Wayne whine on CH200 that he just got face-shot or vulched? Would he run to the forum in a fit of angst or frustration and start a thread to form a gang to make the other players behave nicer or follow the 'Marquee of Queen's Berries'* rules?

If he was still around and took a liking to this game for a few minutes now and again ... and ... if he bothered to waste time in it typing ... it'd probably take on more of a 'True Grit' feel:

Ned Pepper: What's your intention? Do you think one on four is a dogfall?

Rooster Cogburn: I mean to kill you in one minute, Ned. Or see you hanged in Fort Smith at Judge Parker's convenience. Which'll it be?

Ned Pepper: I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.

Rooster Cogburn: Fill your hands, you (S of a B)!

~~~~~~~

The easier method would be a bit of Tuco's wisdom from 'The Good, The Bad and the Ugly' ....

Tuco (Eli Wallach): When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.

Well, it works for me.

As for players who don't fill channel 200 with whines or jeers or chest-thumping ego-prancing being part of this game's 'problem' when it comes to 'honor' ... well, that's about as inventive a blame as I've seen so far.  :D

"There's a lot of whiners in every crowd."

- R. Lee Ermey

* Marquess of Queensberry rules

John Wayne had no test.  He had a code he lived by:

"I'd rather be dead and cool....than alive and uncool"
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Babalonian

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2013, 03:03:32 PM »
Speaking of the good ol' days; what ever happened to child labor camps?
-Babalon
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Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Arlo

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2013, 03:03:57 PM »
John Wayne had no test.  He had a code he lived by:

"I'd rather be dead and cool....than alive and uncool"

It's your (our) test. Not his. And that definitely ain't a quote that would bring you closer to John Wayne's philosophy. It's going to be such an interesting conversation with you when you try to explain your version of truth, honor and reality to me at Cavanaugh and the Londoner.  :aok  :D
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 05:44:59 PM by Arlo »

Offline Changeup

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2013, 04:08:26 PM »
It's your test. Not his. And that definitely ain't a quote that would bring you closer to John Wayne's philosophy. It's going to be such an interesting conversation with you when you try to explain your version of truth, honor and reality to me at Cavanaugh and the Londoner.  :aok  :D

Obviously I've struck some kind of cord with you which began as me being a smart donut and ended up with you being just short of a stalker.  I know well and good that John Wayne never said that and I know well and good that anyone that is a fan of John Wayne knows he didn't say that.  In point of fact, that is a line from Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man.  But having read several books and his biography, I believe he would have used that line in jest or earnest.  That's how I feel about it...and die as you might, you don't really get to tell anyone how to feel.

Know this.  I have no intention of defending, explaining or justifying anything to you.  I'm going because I'm curious to see if there is actually any substance behind the facade, is there any depth to the person or is he just someone that's bored, Googles quotes, pictures, and quickly skims Wikipedia to try to de-lie folks to look impressive to BBS members that don't really give a damn.  That will be interesting to see but a battle of wits?  I feel real comfortable in the outcome should you choose that path.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Arlo

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2013, 04:19:22 PM »
Obviously I've struck some kind of cord with you which began as me being a smart donut and ended up with you being just short of a stalker.

Huh. Talk about a struck chord. What's with the self-flattering paranoia about us disagreeing in yet another thread?

  I know well and good that John Wayne never said that and I know well and good that anyone that is a fan of John Wayne knows he didn't say that.  In point of fact, that is a line from Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man.  But having read several books and his biography, I believe he would have used that line in jest or earnest. 

Mneh.  ;)

That's how I feel about it...and die as you might, you don't really get to tell anyone how to feel.

'Die' as I might? (Huh. Freudian, I guess.)

As girly as that sounds, who's telling you how to feel, Francis?  :D

Know this.  I have no intention of defending, explaining or justifying anything to you.  I'm going because I'm curious to see if there is actually any substance behind the facade, is there any depth to the person or is he just someone that's bored, Googles quotes, pictures, and quickly skims Wikipedia to try to de-lie folks to look impressive to BBS members that don't really give a damn.  That will be interesting to see but a battle of wits?  I feel real comfortable in the outcome should you choose that path.

Well, I'm all about your comfort.  :aok

Offline TheBug

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2013, 04:20:51 PM »
10 bucks you two will be making out within the first hour of meeting each other.  I'm sensing the "frustration".  :banana:
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 04:24:27 PM by TheBug »
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Offline Arlo

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Re: AH community: Tarzan or Lord of the Flies?
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2013, 04:22:07 PM »
10 bucks you two will be making out within the first hour of meeting each other.  I sensing the "frustration".  :banana:

Well, I can't change what he believes, yaknow. (You, either.)  :D