What a cool, dirt simple feature..

[muzik]

Muzik ... you were wish listing for 24 plane formations with one player.

This is better.

Isn't it?

 

Ah yes. I was wondering when you or any of the other nay sayers were going to try and back pedal somehow. I dont recall you ever commenting on this concession.

You in effect denied the whole idea had any appeal or value and now that it's showing some appeal or success, you want to ride on the tail of an idea you didn't even comment on with your THEORY that the other idea was excessive.

The answer is no. The way it is now is a decent concession. It's not better.

Instead of logging in to have the experience you choose to have when you want to have it, you have to wait until 20 other guys are in agreement.

Not to mention if what some say is true, that everything added to this game is only about improving fighter combat, then this way is another drain on that goal because more of those guys could be flying fighters attacking or defending those formations... or getting into dogfights in the process.

[NikonGuy]

Its a handy feature but it needs work.  Was trying to wing up to someone last night and the 47 I was flying was rocking around like it was flying inside a tornado.  I couldn't remain on wingman mode as it was doing my head in.

[moot]

Are those who disapprove of the bomber consequences only a vocal minority?  Cause I'd have thought most players would get hard about such dense target environment.

Myself I mostly remembered all the times squaddies and I had to screw around to get perfectly accurate alt-x heading to climb out together.   Not so much combat maneuver-slaving.

[Fish42]

Its a handy feature but it needs work.  Was trying to wing up to someone last night and the 47 I was flying was rocking around like it was flying inside a tornado.  I couldn't remain on wingman mode as it was doing my head in.

I found this happens if your flying with someone who ping is high and your over 400 from the wingman. Close up and get close to their speed before you hit Ctrl W. if your close the plane holds steady with minor drifts and throttle changes.

[steely07]

I found this happens if your flying with someone who ping is high and your over 400 from the wingman. Close up and get close to their speed before you hit Ctrl W. if your close the plane holds steady with minor drifts and throttle changes.

This could be it, my wingman was playing over a 4G wireless connect, will try it again with someone with good ping, thanks Fish

[Arlo]

Ah yes. I was wondering when you or any of the other nay sayers were going to try and back pedal somehow. I dont recall you ever commenting on this concession.

You in effect denied the whole idea had any appeal or value and now that it's showing some appeal or success, you want to ride on the tail of an idea you didn't even comment on with your THEORY that the other idea was excessive.

The answer is no. The way it is now is a decent concession. It's not better.

Instead of logging in to have the experience you choose to have when you want to have it, you have to wait until 20 other guys are in agreement.

Not to mention if what some say is true, that everything added to this game is only about improving fighter combat, then this way is another drain on that goal because more of those guys could be flying fighters attacking or defending those formations... or getting into dogfights in the process.

You're attempting to take credit for:

Great thinking points guys...

I like the idea of large bomber formations. It's always been more fun for a noob player such as myself to be amidst a group of buffs as I felt safer and I had help from other players.

I'm not certain on which approach is better for the game. Increasing single formation numbers, or that ability to group buffs 3-4 players into a single flying formation using dot commands to latch to a lead player.   As fun as it would to see the 24 bufffs in my own formation, defending it myself would be difficult and allowing others (gunner/observers/ OR A.I.) to defend me would make the attacking very difficult. As with any game, balance must be striven for.

   Great Discussion!

When you're idea was:

The current string of threads about bombers, 163s and strats got me thinking about an old suggestion.

Large bomber formations

Implementation...

A bomber takes off and is followed in succession just as currently modeled, only with 23 drones to compose a formation. The bomber pilot must circle the base for the (historically accurate) form-up  within a specified radius. Failure to do so results in lost drones. Drones take off at realistic intervals.

Once drones have formed up, pilot may proceed to target. Which brings me to a secondary and also previously requested suggestion.

AI gunners for the formation.

Implementation...

AI gunners within a formation have varied skill levels with the better gunners placed in the most critical guns. AI gunners can fire in multiple directions against multiple attackers. Players can choose to take any position or none at all.

Perhaps AI skill levels can improve with longevity. For example, Each bomber in the formation is numbered; if bombers 12 and 19 continue to survive missions and better yet acquire kills on those missions, the AI skill level on those aircraft increases to a realistic level, not to the uncommon levels that can be seen in AH.


Validation for large formations...

• Complaints that the recent wind changes make bombing too difficult.
• Complaints it's hard to find fights.
• More bang for the buck.
• Reduction in unrealistic maneuvering.
• Complaints that 163s deter bomber pilots from participation
• New player benefits

The complaints I've seen about bombing accuracy after the wind change seemed to be a knee jerk reaction related to scores. Regardless, the ridiculously accurate results bombers have been getting for years should never be brought back. Combined with the more realistic randomness of bomb hits, large formations will produce more realistic bombing experience and results. The novelty of a change like this would probably placate any lingering wind worries.

A single fighter that attacks a single bomber formation is potentially provided with more entertainment with no increase in player population. The bomber pilot survives to rtb more often, the fighter pilots get more kills and spends less time looking for fights, etc.

This is especially important on late nights when Euro players may be getting less game for the same dollars spent by US players. Additional arguments can be made along this line.

With 24 bombers, the ability for a formation to endure the less realistic, hard maneuvers that can be seen in game should be reduced along with the gamey factor. Formations would have to make longer, wider turns if they choose to make second passes on the same base.

The odds of success for the bomber pilot increase as the risk to all fast moving attackers increases with more risk of collision or random hits by AI gunners.

New players will have better success in shorter periods of time and enjoy a feature that is not found in any other sim that I am aware of. Additional advantages described below.


Validation for AI gunners...

• New players and learning curve.
• Fighters have an unfair advantage against bombers even if they have 2 gunners.
• Bombers shouldn't be such easy prey and unprotected from multiple fighters from multiple directions.
• Bomber mission inadequacies.

New players have enough of a learning curve without learning to gun from a bomber. A certain amount of success is required early on or only the most devoted or motivated will stay. An inexperienced player may not even have the skill to land for months let alone get kills. Doesn't have to be easy mode, but there should be a little more chance.

Always been this way, fighters are at an advantage until the gunner positions are mastered and that is not too common.

Again, it's unrealistic and an unfair advantage when two or more fighters hit bombers from multiple directions.

Even when players gather enough to build large missions, they rarely have the cohesiveness to stay in a tight formation where they might provide mutual fire support.


BRING IT ON FLAMERS.  

Seriously? Kinda sad, man.  

Ok, I'm with you on this.

Heh goofball.   

[NikonGuy]

I found this happens if your flying with someone who ping is high and your over 400 from the wingman. Close up and get close to their speed before you hit Ctrl W. if your close the plane holds steady with minor drifts and throttle changes.

Tanks Mr Fish ..

Definitely an awesome thing for the bomber guys

[bozon]

What does this have to do with anything?
another pointless comment?
So you're saying the game is overly simplified. debatable.
And again, neither one of these comments has anything to do with formation flying, just bombing in general. You can pile all the complaints you want to on top of this ONE feature, it's not going to make your argument any more valid.
Yea, I think you're on to something. Let's make the game more challenging with only ONE GUNNER with ONE GUN to protect the formation. That would be SOOOOOOO realistic and historically accurate.  
Should we make players do manual take off and formation for each bomber? That would be more challenging.

Here let me remind you of the ones you don't understand or won't admit to because you want to win an argument.
-Trying to line up on target and drop your bombs while defending/gunning against fighters.
-Flying the plane, avoiding mountains, navigating, etc. etc. while defending/gunning.
-helping new players with a steep learning curve.
-Increasing survivability for buffs.

And more.

You don't seem to have any good argument against this. How does this negatively affect your game or anyone else's?

The "job of 10 people" is just plain excuse. You dont do the job of the CO-pilot, the navigator and the radio operator. Your job as bombardier is simplified into the ground level, and now lower still by dropping on command from the lead. Your job as a gunner is one person in a hive of slave gunners. Now, you are not even the pilot of your 3 planes ship - you outsource this job to another person. This is a flight "sim" in which you are not required to fly your plane.

"-Trying to line up on target and drop your bombs while defending/gunning against fighters."
How is this different from a fighter-bomber? they too need to do all this at once. Even more, if they are forced to defend they will not get to bomb at all. So yes, in a sense they do not need to defend and bomb at the same time.

"-Flying the plane, avoiding mountains, navigating, etc. etc. while defending/gunning."
Same as any other plane.

"-helping new players with a steep learning curve."
OK, I'll give you that much. Bombers are what all new players default to when they get frustrated with flying fighters. Not entirely sure that this feature will advance them in any significant way.

"-Increasing survivability for buffs."
Is this good or bad? The low survivability of buffs is a myth. There are 3 bombers per player versus 1 fighter per player. To achieve parity, the K/D of fighters vs. bombers should be 3/1. Last tour the overall K/D of B17G was 0.4, most of the kills were by fighters I assume. It is even better than 1:3 and bombers are often flown in a very stupid way to suicide missions or carpet bomb a single GV.

As I said, this will not make or break the game. It is a small feature. However, this is another stepping stone on the way to make this game less and less of a flight sim and stupidify the game. Does anyone in this game appreciate a good bomber pilot? is there such a thing, beyond being a good gunner? I find it hard to point out a good bomber pilot when there is less and less skill involved in it. Now even formation flying is not part of the required skill set.

[muzik]

You're attempting to take credit for:

When you're idea was:

Seriously? Kinda sad, man.  

Heh goofball.   

Buuzz

And, wrong again. Im taking credit for the idea dubious was referring to from the previous page...

Oh look, I even foretold the answer to your erroneous presumption about which is best.   

Now that I think about it, there is another way to implement my idea without using large drone formations. A command that slaves any bomber to a lead aircraft and keeps all players in nice formations that leaves one pilot to worry about navigation and everyone else to defense.

I think it would be a great compromise but it still wouldn't be as good as using drones. Drones are a population multiplier that increases action/activity for everyone. There is no question other than what programming or server challenges it presents and I see little of either without a huge increase in subscriptions.

[Arlo]

Buuzz

And, wrong again. Im taking credit for the idea dubious was referring to from the previous page...

Oh look, I even foretold the answer to your erroneous presumption about which is best.   

Here, man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism .... for your own good. 

[Triton28]

Got a chance to try this in FSO yesterday, it might just be me, but after turning it on, the joystick, (inside the cockpit, not my physical one) started vibrating, after a min or so, the airframe started an oscillation that was quite nasty, turned it off straight away.

The person i'd set as wingman was in the same aircraft and on autoclimb.

I must check my calibration and deadzone, but I never have spiking issues in normal play (stick is a Warthog), has anyone else seen this?

I've had this happen when I would try to engage the autopilot straight away after getting to the desired distance from my wingman.  It seems to be much smoother if you manually wing up, stabilize the E states, and then engage the autopilot. 

Lag is always present and may influence the bouncy stick syndrome, but since I started doing the above it seems to work as advertised.

[bozon]

Try flying with a wingman and both of you set the auto formation on each other. The result is hilarious.

[Arlo]

Try flying with a wingman and both of you set the auto formation on each other. The result is hilarious.

I've wondered bout that. Is there a constant auto-fight for wingman slot? 

[muzik]

The "job of 10 people" is just plain excuse. You dont do the job of the CO-pilot, the navigator and the radio operator.

After briefly looking over your entire response I have to warn you, this is not going to end well for you because this comment was about the ONLY thing you get right.

"10 people" was an EXAGGERATION. You caught me. It's only, 2 to 5 jobs that we often get stuck trying to do simultaneously.

Your job as bombardier is simplified into the ground level, and now lower still by dropping on command from the lead.

NOBODY cares how easy bombing is in this discussion. It has NOTHING to do with formation flying. It is a separate subject. WHYYYYYYYYYYYY you say? Because if it mattered to you at ALL, it would bother you just as much when you jumped from pilot to gunner, to bombardier or to F3. But I haven't seen your wishlist post demanding F3 be eliminated or locking pilots in their seats so that they have to "fly the plane in a flight simulator."

No, that's not what you are doing, you are dumping on a completely independent feature and suggesting throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Your job as a gunner is one person in a hive of slave gunners.

Another irrelevant point, what do you suggest we could do to protect bombers without this feature? Should we have just one machine gun available at a time?

It sounds like you don't like the idea of flying into bomber formations because you get shot at by too many guns. I got news for you, that's how it was in the war.

"-Trying to line up on target and drop your bombs while defending/gunning against fighters."
How is this different from a fighter-bomber? they too need to do all this at once. Even more, if they are forced to defend they will not get to bomb at all. So yes, in a sense they do not need to defend and bomb at the same time.

HELLO??? "fighter/bomber" = FIGHTER+bomber = FIGHTER fighterrrrrrrr  I'm not even going to waste anymore time on this one.

"-Flying the plane, avoiding mountains, navigating, etc. etc. while defending/gunning."
Same as any other plane.

They are not the same. Other planes are NOT heavy bombers.

Heavy bomber pilots cant do 6g turns or pull a trigger on the yoke and shoot down FWs and 51s. Heavies generally don't point the nose at the ground and drop in a dive or have the ability to outrun attackers.

"-Increasing survivability for buffs."
Is this good or bad?

Good, and you just conceded to just one of the reasons. New players need some success or they could just give up.

The low survivability of buffs is a myth.

Hogwash. Even really good bomber pilots will be toast if a vet catches them low.  In this game, the odds have always been on the fighters.

As I said, this will not make or break the game. It is a small feature. However, this is another stepping stone on the way to make this game less and less of a flight sim and stupidify the game.

This is a step to a more realistic experience. It allows large formations to stay together and actually have a fighting chance at defending themselves.

It LOOKS AND FEELS like ww2. Something that most new players have always expected to see when they first try games like these.

The less this game resembles what people generally know of WW2, the more of their first reactions to the game is going to be disappointment however slight that may be. Not a good first impression regardless of how short sighted they are. This feature is good business.

If hitech gets it in gear, large formations could lead to large groups of fighters being compelled to fly to target with the bombers as escort, large groups of enemy fighters being compelled to defend the target, and the resulting dogfights deep over enemy territory.

If they create an imperative for bombers to attack and destroy certain targets, then there is an imperative for fighter combat. Once you see these kinds of changes then you will see more "appreciation for good bomber pilots."

Does anyone in this game appreciate a good bomber pilot? is there such a thing, beyond being a good gunner? I find it hard to point out a good bomber pilot when there is less and less skill involved in it. Now even formation flying is not part of the required skill set.

I find it hard to believe that you think the ability to jump back and forth from gunner to pilot seat qualifies someone as a good bomber pilot.

If you want to create a challenge for bomber pilots, ask hitech to get rid of the little icon on the map that shows you where you are and your direction at all times. THAT'S a pilots challenge!

[muzik]

Here, man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism .... for your own good. 

Baby gazelles shouldn't wonder into open fields like that. Narc tigers don't give a diddly about public opinion. It's dinner time.