Roped.

[Rich46yo]

Thanks for any input.To be fair this wasnt entirely my fault. What the video doesnt show is the 2 mins before when a Niki bled off a lot of my "E" by making me break off this Hellcat. I knew immediately I was in trouble, normally I'd never be so slow in a Yak, and could have broke off but I wanted to test the Yak so why not fight to the bitter end. Who knows it may be a noob.

Well it wasnt. It was against a guy who doesnt make mistakes. What I want to know is what impact does the high speed flaps play in this kind of rope maneuver. I most often run into it against corsairs, Hellcats, Mustangs...ect and I suspect a level of flaps or two allows the inward turn at the top of the rope. Anyway the video, embarrassing tho it may be. http://youtu.be/5zFeYrgZLXY

Thanks for any input. 

[Wiley]

By my terminology, that wasn't a 'rope' at all.  To me a rope is when the two of you zoom near vertical, and the guy in front depends on having a better zoom climb than the guy behind.  The guy behind runs out of speed and his plane stalls or he's forced to break off, while the guy in front hammerheads or loops over and takes advantage of the stalling guy below.

What that video looked like to me was, you started off climbing to him, he used his superior E to loop twice to get you to follow him and bleed your E.  As he got slow, he was definitely popping out flaps.  F4U's pretty much always do that, as they make a ginormous difference at low speed for them.  You pretty much can't stall fight effectively without them.

What I think I would've done differently if I were you at the beginning of that video is gone level on sight, instead of climbing to him.  That would give you more speed to play with from the initial merge.  I'd have conserved my E and tried to equalize E as much as possible.  Once an F4U is co-E with most aircraft, he's doomed as it generates E more slowly than most of the rest of the planeset.  F4U-4 being the exception of course.

Once I was co-E, I'd have taken the fight uphill, as the F4U just wouldn't be able to climb with you.

Wiley.

[gyrene81]

from what i've been told, the term "rope" is short for "rope a dope" and it's basically setting a con on your six to be picked off by a friendly. the most common one i see is when a guy drags the con straight up to bleed his e and the friendly zooms in to pick him off.

[Wiley]

from what i've been told, the term "rope" is short for "rope a dope" and it's basically setting a con on your six to be picked off by a friendly. the most common one i see is when a guy drags the con straight up to bleed his e and the friendly zooms in to pick him off.

To me that's a drag and bag.  A rope a dope from the common usage I've seen doesn't require a friendly.  If it's 1 on 1 the ideal is, you both go straight vertical and if the guy following is cooperative, he keeps going up and up and up until his plane is just hanging and falls into an uncontrolled stall.  Ideally, the guy on top hammerheads at the right moment and has a nearly stationary, completely out of control plane below him just as he opens fire.  P38's and 190s often use it to great effect.  A jug with smash can use it well also.

A lot of people who are dragging do employ the rope though, and it's definitely one of the best ways to set a guy up.  Easiest shot in the game, and even if the bouncer misses, the guy who was roped is out of E.

Wiley.

[JimmyD3]

To me that's a drag and bag.  A rope a dope from the common usage I've seen doesn't require a friendly.  If it's 1 on 1 the ideal is, you both go straight vertical and if the guy following is cooperative, he keeps going up and up and up until his plane is just hanging and falls into an uncontrolled stall.  Ideally, the guy on top hammerheads at the right moment and has a nearly stationary, completely out of control plane below him just as he opens fire.  P38's and 190s often use it to great effect.  A jug with smash can use it well also.

A lot of people who are dragging do employ the rope though, and it's definitely one of the best ways to set a guy up.  Easiest shot in the game, and even if the bouncer misses, the guy who was roped is out of E.

Wiley.

Wiley, sorry for the dumb question, but what is smash? WEP?

[Wiley]

Wiley, sorry for the dumb question, but what is smash? WEP?

"Smash" is something I've never seen officially defined.  I guess if I were to come up with a formal definition it would be 'at a speed above its normal level flight speed capability'.  A plane with smash has come down from altitude.

Wiley.

[gyrene81]

Wiley, sorry for the dumb question, but what is smash? WEP?

smash is basically travelling very fast and carrying a lot of energy...like what happens when you dive down on someone from a higher alt.

[ink]

definitely not a "rope"

I would have lowered my nose grabbed some speed....instead of that first left turn you do...you should have started climbing as soon as he went to left....you would have met him at the top and had much better position from there.

[mbailey]

Watched it on my iPhone so forgive me if I'm wrong but it looks like you lost him visually for a few critical seconds during and after his 2nd pass.  With you not knowing where he is and having fought the defensive fight the whole encounter I think that may be where he had you. I agree w/ Ink I would have nosed down a tad for speed and climbed when he was making that climbing left turn. If anything you would have kept him in your peripheral vision.

Not sure if the outcome would have been different with you in a new unfamiliar plane and him in a ride he obviously spends some time in.  Way to stick with it and fight the fight anyway
 

[BluBerry]

definitely not a "rope"

I would have lowered my nose grabbed some speed....instead of that first left turn you do...you should have started climbing as soon as he went to left....you would have met him at the top and had much better position from there.

I agree, looks to me like you gave up some energy that you could have really used once the fight got going.

[morfiend]

 Rich,

  You got some good comments to think about!  I agree with Mbailey about loosing sight,it made it difficult to see what the niki was doing on the Utube vid but at the initial merge when the niki dove under you I saw a fatal mistake!

  You followed him down and gave up your alt. I tried to see the airspeed ind. but it was difficult to make out,if you had suffient speed it would have been better to nose up turn or even flat turn to maintain your alt. This would have made the niki nice and slow as he climbed up to you.

    That said,I think the biggest mistake was,loose sight loose fight,as simple as that.

   If I had the AHF film it would have been easier to really diagnose the fight but then I'd have to watch it on my other comp as I don't have the game on this lapper.



    

[Babalonian]

The definitiion of a rope is when you're leading with a trailing con and take the fight vertical, dragging the con up behind you "with a rope".  In a 1v1 situation you hope/pray you have the advantage and the con will stall-out first, resulting in you gaining the 6 on his tail - in AH where it's often multiples vs multiples, it's an easy way to string out your con to be quickly/easily picked off like a dangling piece of meat by your friends, but can expose you to their gun solution.  If you're roping a con and have friendlies nearby, call it.  If you're a friendly nearby, take a grab for the free kill.  If you're being roped and don't think you have the E advantage AND know other enemies are nearby - avoid it!

[Kingpin]

Hi Hurless,

Here are the things I observed in looking at your film.  (As Morf pointed out, the AH Film would be much better for evaluating, as the E-states can be determined more precisely from the film):

1) It is definitely NOT a rope.  This was a turning engagement, which the F6F initiates with his left turn at about 00:24 of your film.  

2) You seem to be relatively slow to him at the first turn (your IAS appears to show between 160-175 on the gauge) coming into the first merge.  That’s not a lot of speed to go vertical with.  At around the 00:21 mark, when he begins tipping his hand toward an intended left turn, you could build a little E by first going flat or a little nose low, anticipating his left turn and preparing to lead turn into him.

3) During this first part of the engagement, you seem to be flying entirely LAG pursuit angles.  Note how your nose is consistently pointed behind him from 00:24 to 00:32.  As the slower plane, lag pursuit is going to put you farther and farther behind him, instead of closing the distance.  Given your speed deficiency, I think you should probably be flying to where he is going (lead), not where he is.   This would have kept you a bit closer and perhaps even put you in position for an early shot at that first or second merge.  Granted, those would be difficult shots, but ones you may want to take against an opponent that is going to out-E-fight you in a protracted fight.

4) From 00:32-00:49, you are essentially in a rolling scissors, and one that you unlikely to win given his increasing E advantage.  When you lose sight (around 00:51-00:54) you pretty much lose the fight.  You also reverse your turn at this point, giving him your six while he comes down with speed.  

5) The defensive fight from that point on is another subject altogether.

That is my assessment of it.   I’d like to hear what others think and how accurate my take on it might be.

<S>
Ryno

[Rich46yo]

Thanks for the replys. I never really lost sight of him. Whats wasnt shown on the film was the Niki initially dropping on me which caused me to lose both energy and altitude. The part of me looking back at the Niki was AFTER he originally bounced me. I knew I was trouble immediately after I saw the HC dive and saw all the E he was storing. At the beginning I was in far better shape, and yes, I normally drop and build up E in such a situation. This time I didnt. The Niki bled me and then I still tried to gain on the HC. I know what I did wrong.

The thing I want to know is what part do flaps play when a high speed flaps fighter reaches the top of his zoom. Do you hit a flap or two and then raise them as you drop again? It just seemed like an awfully tight turn for a HC at the top of his zoom.

Honestly I dont care all that much about terminology. I just want to know if flaps are used.

By my terminology, that wasn't a 'rope' at all.  To me a rope is when the two of you zoom near vertical, and the guy in front depends on having a better zoom climb than the guy behind.  The guy behind runs out of speed and his plane stalls or he's forced to break off, while the guy in front hammerheads or loops over and takes advantage of the stalling guy below.

Especially when it was that that happened. I just didnt climb, or climb much, cause I knew he had energy on me.

[Vudu15]

I agree Rich you want to know what happened not what its called....I would ask the guys in this area to focus on that in the future, The man wanted to know what he did wrong not the definition of what killed him.

In response to your question I have this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBsNHwYI54&feature=youtu.be