August FSO

[Bino]

Battle Of Britain - August 1940
 
For the past several weeks the Luftwaffe has been probing the RAF defenses over Allied shipping in the English Channel and over the southeastern coast of England.  Now, the battle is moving into a new phase as the German bombers begin to range further inland, targeting RAF bases in England.  The German intent is to draw the British into a series of large, decisive clashes and destroy the RAF in the air and on the ground. The RAF hopes to prolong the aerial battle of attrition, and wear down the Luftwaffe to the point that it cannot adequately protect any attempt by the German Army to cross the Channel and invade southern England. Each air force faces numerous challenges. The RAF uses radar and a centralized command structure to concentrate its small number of planes against the German attackers. The Luftwaffe's single-engined fighter, the Bf-109, carries only enough fuel to fight as far inland as London for just a few minutes.
 
The world's first truly strategic air campaign is about to begin...

Details of the setup here:  http://www.ahevents.org/fso-current-next-event.html

Calendar of frames here:  http://www.ahevents.org/events-calendar.html

Squadron CO's please update your side and ride requests.  Thanks!   

[UncleKurt]

SE site doesn't accept side updates at present.
K

[Bino]

SE site doesn't accept side updates at present.
K

Fixed. 

Thanks for letting me know, Kurt.   

[UncleKurt]

 
Thanks!

[Krusty]

I wonder why, like the upcoming scenario, too much emphasis has been placed upon our post-BOB Ju88, with 50% more defensive gunpower, 50% more bombload, and much better speed than the Ju88s that flew in the BOB.

I would think with the short-term nature of the FSO it is the better place to test out the new He111 in the role for which it was (let's be honest) included into the game!

[Bino]

I don't understand why you say "too much emphasis" is on the JU-88.

In this FSO setup I calculate that the LW might have as many as 190 bombers (60 x Ju-88, 90 x He-111, 40 x Ju-87). 

According to what I've read, bomber numbers in the two Luftflotten facing England in August 1940 broke down like this:

    Do-17 & He-111        50%

    Ju-88                       30%

    Ju-87 "Stuka"            20%

So the numbers in this FSO setup look pretty good to me.

We do not have the Ju-88A-1 (or the Do-17, for that matter).  I sincerely hope that we do get it soon.  It would be fantastic if we had the *complete* WWII plane set.

In the meantime, I plan to make do with what we have.

[Krusty]

The Ju88 has taken 100% representation of all bombers in the BOB for 13-14 years now in this game (was it 1999 or 2000?). I say "too much emphasis" because it's being used at all (now that we have something that is actually appropriate).

I'll quote myself rather than type it up again, but there were a LOT of differences between the A-1 and our A-4.

Separating the A-1 from the A-4:

Armament on the Ju-88A-1 was entirely of MG15 in makeup, with 3 or 4 installed. There was only the one in the ventral bay. The Ju88A-4 carried 3x MG81 guns and a MG81 Z "twin" in the ventral gondola. The MG15 fired only at a peak of 1000 rounds per minute, but the MG81 fired upwards of 1500 rounds per minute. The MG81Z fired 3000 rounds per minute! Some sources say as much as 3200 rounds per minute. Not pertinent to AH just yet, MG15s were limited to 75-rd drum magazines, whereas MG81s were belt-fed in continuous ammo belts.

The A-1 had a max bombload of 2500kg, internal or external. It didn't have the wheel struts to take the heavier loads of the A-4 variant. I believe the A-1 only had 1 inboard ETC250 bombrack under each wing, where the A-4 has 2 under each. The A-1 had many problems with bombload restrictions due to the ranges it needed to fly in the BOB. It often had small bombloads of 1000kg or 500kg so that it could use half of the bombbay storage for an extra fuel tank. Much like our B-17 it COULD carry heavier loads, but only at much shorter ranges. Maximum bomb load limited its range to 700 miles or so, which was barely more than the spitfires and bf109Es of the time. The A-4 could carry more fuel and more bombload, making it an overall more effective bomber.

Part of this was due to the more powerful engines, each about 200hp stronger (400 total) than the A-1's engines. This allowed for better armor plating in the bombers, better fuel loads, better bomb loads, and other general performance and handling benefits. However, these engines weren't available in any real quantities until early 1941 (after the BOB's general time frame). This extra horsepower alone allowed an increase in the gross weight of 3,700 lbs, and a top speed increase across the board of 15mph. This boost in speed came along with an increase in bombload, AND armor plates fitted on the sides of the cockpit and the ventral gondola, which the A-1 lacked.

I should remind you that our hurr1 and our ju88a4 top speeds differ only by 20mph as it is. YES, it is a problem that AH doesn't limit bombers' speeds/engine settings a bit more, but going from the ju88a4 we have to a ju88a1 from the proper era would almost DOUBLE the performance gap of our pursuing hurricanes. The top speed of the A-1 when it was EMPTY was 280mph. Our A-4 does 290 WITH an internal bombload. Cruising speed was about 220mph (on the A-1), though that won't mean much for the Aces High crowd.

The A-1 had fabric covered ailerons of a free-floating type for less effective control surfaces and worse maneuverability. It had an unbalanced rudder as well, which was redesigned to have a balanced top in the A-4. That reduces forces required to achieve certain rudder positions and generally makes a control surface more responsive. The A-4, along with its extended wings, redesigned the ailerons to be metal covered and of a more modern design (similar to what you might think a WW2 plane had). The A-1 handling was rather unsatisfactory to most pilots, and when the A-4 came around they marvelled at how light and nimble the controls were. The A-4 had a wingspan of 65 feet 7.5 inches, which was a full 7 feet more than the A-1 with 58 feet 6 inches. The combination of extra wing area, redesigned control surfaces, much more power, altogether changed the airframe from a poor one to a great one. It wasn't until the A-4 that thoughts of making this airframe into a heavy fighter or night fighter began. The A-1 was far worse in most aspects of maneuvering.

An example of the aileron differences:
http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz63/krustacious/random/ju88a1_wing.jpg

Another aspect is that the A-1 was much more fragile. It had to be very careful with weight loadings before takeoffs. It had to be balanced/loaded perfectly. More so than most planes, even other German ones. It could NOT dive unless it was done very carefully and specifically. It structurally wasn't as capable (G forces and whatnot) as the A-4 was. Along with the lack of armor plates around the crew compartment, this means that IF we had a Ju88A-1 in our BOB scenarios, when a hurricane caught up to it and shot at it, it would go down in flames (or in pieces) much more quickly.

The Ju88A-1 was undergoing inprovements during the BOB and these were being incorporated into the A-5 and A-4 variants. Whereas a few planes at the Ju88A-4 standard were serving during the end of the BOB they were field modifications or depot-level conversions most likely. The Ju88A-4s combat debut was really the invasion of Soviet Russia in 1941. The A-4 (and the subvariants that were almost identical to the A-4 but with specific differences like life rafts or desert gear) was the most-produced Ju88 variant in the war.... It just isn't representative of the Battle of Britain or anything much before June 1941.

It is NOT just a claim that it was slower. Though, that is a big part of it. It was almost an entirely different plane. One might as well say "the 109E is slower than the 109F" and leave it at that. They are worlds apart in overal capability and performance, as well as in exterior shape. Their payloads, ranges, and weapons are different. Their roll rates, climb rates, dive rates are all different.


And THAT, my dear friends, is why the Ju88A-1 would be a major benefit to our BOB scenarios/setups, as compared to the Ju88A-4 we currently have. Thank you for reading.

[pops57]

Good read Krusty.

[captain1ma]

krusty, maybe you should put that in the wishlist, where it belongs. most of the CM's try to balance things as best they can with what they have to work with. At one point i used Betty's in the AVA to sub for He-111's. in a perfect world we would have all the planes we needed and all the models of each plane......but we don't. so we have to use the tools at hand and make the best of it. while i understand your frustration, please understand ours....

[Scca]

Maybe the concern is the Spit and Hurri I's 303's can do little against the better equipped JU-88's? 

[Krusty]

krusty, maybe you should put that in the wishlist, where it belongs. most of the CM's try to balance things as best they can with what they have to work with. At one point i used Betty's in the AVA to sub for He-111's. in a perfect world we would have all the planes we needed and all the models of each plane......but we don't. so we have to use the tools at hand and make the best of it. while i understand your frustration, please understand ours....

This isn't about frustration. It's about logic.

The reason it is NOT in the wishlist forum is because it wasn't a WISHLIST item. Though I do think we could use one, now that we have the He111 the need is greatly lessened.

The reason I posted it here, and in a previous discussion, was to EDUCATE said CMs to the very reasons why the Ju88A-4 ought not be used in the BOB setups. Much like global warming, many people simply don't understand the problems with this and what it means. They just think "Oh, it's a Ju88, it will do fine" and don't consider the end ramifications.

Far from a wishlist, it was explaining in fine detail exactly what the differences between an A-1 and an A-4 would be, and how that plays out in a scenario/FSO.

So please, don't patronize me. It was perfectly on-topic and pertinent to the discussion at hand (which, just to remind you, was "Why do we have the Ju88A-4 in this when the He111 is now in the game and the Ju88A-4 doesn't match up to its BOB variant at all?")

[captain1ma]

maybe sometimes its about fun, and not always about exact recreation?

[Triton28]

88's are going to get slaughtered if they're caught unescorted. Variant differences won't matter.

I do think these epic plane variant scandals are cute to read though.

[Krusty]

maybe sometimes its about fun, and not always about exact recreation?

Nobody claimed it was. False argument.

88's are going to get slaughtered if they're caught unescorted. Variant differences won't matter.

I do think these epic plane variant scandals are cute to read though.

If the hurricanes have alt and position on the Ju88s they can chip away at them, no doubt. However, if they are out of position (which happens... a LOT), or were brought down to an alt closer to the Ju88s, there is a better than even chance that the Ju88s can get away. This has happened many times throughout Aces High history. In FSOs as well.

If you've got perfect advantage, you'll own anything at a lower E-state. No denying that. But... if you have to tail chase Ju88s in a hurricane in this game? If that perfect advantage is gone and you must overtake a Ju88 before it drops? Give up. Just give up. They'll even be faster after they drop.

[Triton28]

Nobody claimed it was. False argument.

If the hurricanes have alt and position on the Ju88s they can chip away at them, no doubt. However, if they are out of position (which happens... a LOT), or were brought down to an alt closer to the Ju88s, there is a better than even chance that the Ju88s can get away. This has happened many times throughout Aces High history. In FSOs as well.

If you've got perfect advantage, you'll own anything at a lower E-state. No denying that. But... if you have to tail chase Ju88s in a hurricane in this game? If that perfect advantage is gone and you must overtake a Ju88 before it drops? Give up. Just give up. They'll even be faster after they drop.

If the Hurricanes have alt and position (as you should if you're going to attack bombers), all of the 88's will either die or be missing large pieces.  If they Hurricanes are out of position, it will be because their pilots are either stupid or they got tangled up with Luftwaffe fighters somewhere nearby before or during the 88's arrival.  The performance of our 88 isn't going to save them from any fighter they're matched up against.  The bombers will succeed or fail based on how good of a job the fighters attacking or defending them do.  The Ju88 is an underpowered pig. Our A-4 just happens to have some eyeliner and some heels.  It's still a pig.   

If this FSO or the upcoming scenario hinges upon Hurricanes running anything down from dead 6, the RAF isn't doing something right.