Author Topic: here you go icepac its from wiki.............  (Read 2422 times)

Offline Eric19

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 591
here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« on: August 13, 2013, 11:13:04 PM »
P63 combat records from wiki

The first version to be supplied in quantity to the USSR was the P-63A-7 with a higher vertical tail, and reinforced wings and fuselage. The fuselage proved to require strengthening, consequently in October 1944, a reinforcement kit for operational P-63s was developed.[11])

Air Transport Command ferry pilots, including U.S. women pilots of the WASP program, picked up the planes at the Bell factory at Niagara Falls, New York, and flew them to Great Falls, Montana and then onward via the Northwest Staging Route through Canada to Alaska, where Russian ferry pilots, many of them women, would take delivery of the aircraft at Nome [12] and fly them to the Soviet Union over the Bering Strait via the Alaska-Siberia route (ALSIB). A total of 2,397 (2,672, according to other sources [13]) such aircraft were delivered to USSR, out of the overall 3,303 production aircraft (72.6%).[14]

By a 1943 agreement, P-63s were disallowed for Soviet use against Germany and were supposed to be concentrated in the Soviet Far East for an eventual attack on Japan.[citation needed] However, there are many unconfirmed reports from both the Soviet and German side that P-63s did indeed see service against the Luftwaffe. Most notably, one of Pokryshkin's pilots reports in his memoirs published in the 1990s that the entire 4th GvIAP was secretly converted to P-63s in 1944, while officially still flying P-39s. One account states they were in action at Königsberg, in Poland and in the final assault on Berlin. There are German reports of P-63s shot down by both fighters and flak. Nevertheless, all Soviet records show nothing but P-39s used against Germany.

In general, official Soviet histories played down the role of Lend-Lease supplied aircraft in favor of local designs, but it is known that the P-63 was a successful fighter aircraft in Soviet service. A common Western misconception is that the Bell fighters were used as ground attack aircraft.


"One of the enduring myths regarding the P-39/P-63 in Soviet use is that because of its armament, in particular the 37mm nose cannon, it excelled as a ground-attack aircraft, even a 'tank buster'. In translating and preparing this manuscript for publication, I have had the opportunity to peruse several Russian-language sources. Mentions of the employment of this aircraft in the ground-attack role are so rare in these sources as to be exceptional ... The 'tank buster' myth has its roots in the misunderstanding of the general wartime role of the Red Air Force and in the imprecise translation of specific Russian-Language terms that describe this role. The specific Russian-Language term most often used to describe the mission and role of the Airacobra-equipped Red Air Force fighter units, in this manuscript and other Russian-language sources , is prikrytiye sukhoputnykh voysk [coverage of ground forces]... Frequent misunderstanding in this country as to the combat role of the P-39 in Soviet use is based in part on imprecise translation of the term prikrytiye sukhoputnykh voysk to 'ground support'. The latter term as it is understood by many Western military historians and readers, suggests the attacking of ground targets in support of ground troops, also called 'close air support'. Did a Soviet Airacobra pilot ever strafe a German tank? Undoubtedly. But this was never a primary mission or strong suit for this aircraft."

—Soviet Army Colonel Dmitriy Loza

The Soviets developed successful group aerial fighting tactics for the Bell fighters and scored a surprising number of aerial victories over a variety of German aircraft. Low ceilings, short missions, good radios, a sealed and warm cockpit and ruggedness contributed to their effectiveness. To pilots who had once flown the tricky Polikarpov I-16, the aerodynamic quirks of the mid-engined aircraft were unimportant. In the Far East, P-63 and P-39 aircraft were used in the Soviet invasion of Manchukoku and northern Korea.

In the Pacific theatre, the Kingcobras flew escort, close air support and ground attack missions. The Soviet P-63s achieved their first air victory on 15 August 1945, when Lejtenant I. F. Miroshnichenko from 17th IAP/190 IAD, shot down a Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa Army fighter off the coast of North Korea.[13]

Sufficient aircraft continued in use after the war for them to be given the NATO reporting name of Fred. By 9 May 1945, operational units had still 1,148 Kingcobras on strength.[13]
Proud member of the 91ST BG (H) The Ragged Irregulars

Offline SIK1

  • AH Training Corps
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3712
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2013, 11:18:06 PM »
Umm, you do know that wiki is not always the most reliable source. I'm not saying that this is wrong, only that it is wise to take all wiki entries with a grain of salt. At least double, or triple check their statements.
444th Air Mafia since Air Warrior
Proudly flying with VF-17

"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG54

Offline Eric19

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 591
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2013, 11:34:39 PM »
I know but for the most part it is correct
Proud member of the 91ST BG (H) The Ragged Irregulars

Offline coombz

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3701
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 12:19:23 AM »
everything that icepac posts is a lie

learn it, remember it
Did you see my dad on dogfights yet?
I'll be seeing you face to face possibly next month.

Offline Vinkman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 09:03:17 AM »
If you get through all of "Attack of the Airacobras" The only mention of the P-63 was in rosters showing plane strength in april of 1945. Ther is mentions that the squadren contained P-63s, but I also think there was a note saying they had just arrived, and no one was certified on them yet, so they weren't flying any sortees. The war ended soon there after. I doubt if any P-63 saw action against Germany.

But that's not a reason to not have the plane in Aces high. Carsairs didn't fight mustangs, or 109s either. The number of Ta-152, Comets, and F4UC was very small and had no impact on the war. Those planes are in the game, but they are perked to help reflect their low usage. The game allows us to creat matchups that never happened, and use planes in ways they were never used in the actual war. That's one of the magnificent things about the game. think of all the arguments that have been put to rest because we know how a 109 stacked up against a N1k. Instead of debating it endless on the BBS, we just go fly and find out.

I'd love to see the P-63 in the game, because by many acounts, Bell perfected the P-39 in the P-63. quirky gun package aside, the plane may have been the best All American Dog Fighter of the war. And may have been the best V12 powered dog fighter of the war. The decision to send it to the Russians was a practical, tactical, and political one. It wasn't becasue the plane wasn't an excellent plane.

I love flying the P-39, but it's just too slow for the MA horde of Spit 16s, La7, Ponies, and 109s, etc. The P-63 would be very competative in the MA. Not uber...or a game changer, but for those of us that like What Bell did with the P-39, it would be the LW plane of choice.  :salute
Who is John Galt?

Offline Zacherof

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3993
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 10:42:24 AM »
I love the bell design. Cept the Q is too slow :furious
In game name Xacherof
USN Sea Bee
**ELITE**
I am a meat popsicle

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6911
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 11:09:12 AM »
everything that icepac posts is a lie

learn it, remember it

I believe this post quoted violates the terms of service for these forums.

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 11:39:11 AM »
Quote
I doubt if any P-63 saw action against Germany.

But that's not a reason to not have the plane in Aces high.

Yes, it is. If it didn't see combat, it shouldn't be in the plane set. Pretty simple.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2013, 11:54:30 AM »
If the P-63 is ever added I hope it is only ever allowed to have Soviet skins.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Vinkman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2013, 01:03:56 PM »
Yes, it is. If it didn't see combat, it shouldn't be in the plane set. Pretty simple.

It didn't see action against Germany. It did see action against the Japanese, so it qualifies.
Who is John Galt?

Offline Vinkman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 01:05:05 PM »
If the P-63 is ever added I hope it is only ever allowed to have Soviet skins.

Agreed.  :salute
Who is John Galt?

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 01:47:29 PM »
Is that ACTUAL combat, or "There was combat. And P-63s maybe probably were in the general vicinity of the front lines but we don't have any evidence that it was actually the P-63s IN combat."
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2013, 02:28:35 PM »
It didn't see action against Germany. It did see action against the Japanese, so it qualifies.

It's debatable whether or not the P-63 saw combat against the Japanese.  The story varies depending on the 'source'.  Some sources state that one Ki-43 from the IJAAF was shot down by a Soviet P-63, other sources state it was a Ki-27 or Ki-43 from either the Manchukuo Imperial Air Force or the National Government of China Air Force of the Reorganized National Government of China (Inner Mongolia Japanese puppet government).  Some accounts also state the action took place over Manchuria, others state Mongolia or over what is now North Korea.

Would be nice to actually see some sort of official record of the account.

ack-ack
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:30:10 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Megalodon

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2272
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2013, 03:43:17 PM »
Yes, it is. If it didn't see combat, it shouldn't be in the plane set. Pretty simple.

 It saw action against the Japanese  

Simpler,

"The initial Kingcobras went to units that had been armed with Aircobras. The first to receive P-63s was the 28th IAP of PVO, based near Moscow.  P-63s arrived at the 17th and the 821st IAPs, ten planes in each. In autumn several Kingcobras came to the 39th IAP. All these regiments entered PVO of the Moscow region. By May 1, 1945 51 PVO regiments were equipped with P-63s.

The P-63 began to be delivered in to Soviet Air Forces in the summer of 1945. As preparations were made for the war with Japan, the new fighters were sent to aviation units of the 12th Air Army in the Far East. The 190th aviation division under the command of Major General Fokin was the first to receive P-63A. The division was transfered to Trans-Baikal in June 1945 and by August 2 finished retraining on the new American fighter. During air operations in Manchuria it flew from two airfields–”Ural” and “Leningrad”–located not far from Choibolsan in Mongolia.

The 245th IAD, which included the 940th and the 781st IAP regiments also flew P-63s. In July and August Kingcobras arrived at the 128th SAD (mixed aviation division), based on Kamchatka peninsula. At the beginning of air operations 97 P-63s arrived at the 9th and the 10th Air Armies.

During the brief military campaign against Japan, Kingcobras were used to provide air cover from air ground troops and ships, to attack and bomb, provide escort, and conduct reconnaissance. For example, on the second day of the offensive, Aug 11, 40 II-4 bombers, escorted by 50 P-63s bombed the fortifications at Suchzhou. Pilots of the 190th and the 245th IADs working as attack planes and light bombers supported the advancing Soviet and Mongolian troops. They also covered transport planes, delivering fuel to the advanced tank and mechanized units. The P-63s carried two Soviet FAB-100 bombs externally. Underwing large-caliber machine guns were not usually mounted when bombs were carried. The 888th and the 410th IAPs from the Kamchatka peninsula inflicted considerable damage to Japanese bases on the Kuril Islands, and then covered the landing of Soviet troops on them.

The Japanese aircraft did not offer serious resistance to the advancing Soviet armies, therefore it was impossible to assess the Kingcobra’s performance in air fights. One unique air combat in a P-63 was flown by Junior Lieutenant I. F. Mirishnichenko of the 17th IAP. On August 17 he and V. F. Sirotin (a Hero of the Soviet Union) attacked two Japanese fighters, who were attacking transport planes coming in for a landing not far from the ship Vanemyao. One Japanese pilot was shot down, another managed to disappear on low-level flight among nearby hills. Miroshnichenko probably shot down the Japanese Ki-43 Hayabusa fighters."




As of August 1, 1945... the last month of the Pacific war....the soviets had these P-63's units in action in squadron form Aug 9th fighting and bombing and scoring at least 2 kills .....the war is not over till September 2nd. http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=167
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/joe_brennan/order_of_battle.htm

Transbaikal Front
12 Air Army Marshal S. A. Khudyakov
190 IAD Col. V.V. Fokin
17 IAP P-63A
821 IAP P-63A
(only 2 regiments)

245 IAD Col. G. P. Pleshchenko
781 IAP P-63A
940 IAP P-63A



Far Eastern Front
128 SAD Lt. Col. M. A. Eryomin
888 IAP P-63A
410 ShAP P-63A

903 BAP SB-2, PV-1, A-20G-1



The P-63 was based off of the P-39Q which we have in the game and would be an "easy addition" to the game. Such as the Ta-152 and P-47M. Produced in far more numbers, some 2000 delivered before the end of the war, the P-63A well deserves a spot in AH.

Edit:
Any one have this book... I believe it to have info on P-63's in the west against Germany.. It is extremely expensive here and writtin in Russian....Kilo, Lyric, Motherland, Wmaker?

Red Stars Vol 4 by Petrov and Guest 2002

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/BookReviews/RedStars4/index.php

« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 06:39:37 PM by Megalodon »
Okay..Add 2 Country's at once, Australia and France next plane update Add ...CAC Boomerang and the Dewoitine D.520

Offline Scca

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2718
Re: here you go icepac its from wiki.............
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2013, 03:44:01 PM »
I believe this post quoted violates the terms of service for these forums.
And so does this, #5...

Opps, now I have done it...  :O
Flying as AkMeathd - CO Arabian Knights
Working on my bbs cred one post at a time

http://www.arabian-knights.org