Hardcore Arena

[Krusty]

ya having a huge neon sign over your plane is realistic


so many times I see you talk about this...and every time you are as wrong as can be....

the simple fact is most planes in WW2 never saw the guy that killed him....and I am sure they were not just sitting there looking straight ahead....

the icon makes it so you can track and see the icon with NO problem.....you can not lose sight easily with an icon.....

don't take a friggen rocket scientist 

No, Ink... I'm sorry but YOU are wrong.

That "most WW2 pilots never saw the guy that killed them" is often used by the "no-icon" advocates, and is out of context. Most never saw the guy that killed them because they didn't look around. That's fact. They didn't have the SA you might have. They had blinders on when trying to stick with their wing leader. THEY were the distraction so the flight leader could get his kills without being shot down. Many's the time a 109 pilot recounted forming up with an entire flight of enemy hurricanes and shooting them down one by one by one until the last guy finally realized something was wrong and broke away just in time to escape.

Fact of the matter the icon fills in for what your eyes can see in real life. You can quite easily lose sight of an icon, and most times if you're maneuvering for a sweet kill-shot it requires under-the-nose aiming (waiting for the target to arrive at a predetermined point so you can kill it).

Fact of the matter is you can SEE a real plane manuevering around at much longer ranges IN REAL LIFE than you can on a flat 2D computer screen. This is made worse by the color palate AH uses (8-bit), the contrast/bright settings of the game, and the fact that 50mm is closer to what the normal eye sees without distortion, but most folks are running at a MUCH wider angle on-screen to simulate peripheral vision. This has the down-side of making everything far smaller than it needs to be. In reality you could VERY easily not only track every plane in a dogfight, but instantly read and recognize the fuselage and tail codes. BOB pilots could instantly tell who was shot down by the codes on the tail, even when they weren't right next to them. Jet fighters have come forward on this very forum and said how they could read tail codes on other fighters up to a mile away (not fuselage codes, smaller tail codes).

Actual commercial pilots, military jet fighter pilots, air traffic controllers, have all gathered many times on these very forums to refute the "no-icons" crowd and explain with not only optics, physics, but real world experiences that happened to them, and have explained how in reality it's far far easier to spot, identify, and track planes than it is in this or any other video game.

It has been proven so many times with facts.

To claim otherwise is just wrong. I'm sorry. You are wrong on this one.

[Chalenge]

Just makes it that much sweeter when you kill one of these "no icon" people and they don't see you coming.

Of course, there's always an excuse. 

[ink]

 

ok

are you seriously this dense?

never mind I know the answer to that question....you proved that a long time ago to me.

remember..."that Ki skin is pure fantasy"



simple fact is you are wrong once again...(don't you get sick of that?)

icons make it virtually imposable to lose sight of the bandit.....that is fact.

that was not the fact in the real world...


ehhh you know what....im done dealing with you and your idiocy...you chalenge and flyingfin....can enjoy no comments from me...

I don't deal well with idiots..so on ignore you go.....

[Oldman731]

That "most WW2 pilots never saw the guy that killed them" is often used by the "no-icon" advocates, and is out of context. Most never saw the guy that killed them because they didn't look around. That's fact.

How could you possibly know this?  Those guys are dead.

Actual commercial pilots, military jet fighter pilots, air traffic controllers, have all gathered many times on these very forums to refute the "no-icons" crowd and explain with not only optics, physics, but real world experiences that happened to them, and have explained how in reality it's far far easier to spot, identify, and track planes than it is in this or any other video game.

It has been proven so many times with facts.

To claim otherwise is just wrong. I'm sorry. You are wrong on this one.

Well I beg to differ with them.  Spotting other planes is not easy, PARTICULARLY if you don't have the traffic devices that airlines and military aircraft now have to clue you into where you should look to see the target.  Heck, we have passive TCAS on the Saratoga and I still have trouble picking planes out of the sky, even when I know where to look.  Was talking to one of Philadelphia's ATC people, a very nice and pretty lady who was also a pilot.  She said that when the ATC people took rides in real aeroplanes, the thing that most surprised them was how difficult it was to see other planes.  They're used to seeing the radar, of course, and we are not far removed in this game.  No-icons in AH is pretty close to real life, so far as I'm concerned.

- oldman

[kvuo75]

How could you possibly know this?  Those guys are dead.




Well I beg to differ with them.  Spotting other planes is not easy, PARTICULARLY if you don't have the traffic devices that airlines and military aircraft now have to clue you into where you should look to see the target.  Heck, we have passive TCAS on the Saratoga and I still have trouble picking planes out of the sky, even when I know where to look.  Was talking to one of Philadelphia's ATC people, a very nice and pretty lady who was also a pilot.  She said that when the ATC people took rides in real aeroplanes, the thing that most surprised them was how difficult it was to see other planes.  They're used to seeing the radar, of course, and we are not far removed in this game.  No-icons in AH is pretty close to real life, so far as I'm concerned.

- oldman

it is not difficult to see aircraft at 6000 yds. (~3.4 miles)


and as I've mentioned before, I can see a golf ball at 200+ yds (maybe 250 yds with sun behind) and I can barely pass the eye test to maintain my drivers license.

FYI a golf ball is smaller than an airplane.

I only bring that up because I've seen someone on this forum once suggest icons should only appear within 200 yds as if ID'ing an airplane is only possible within that range. 

[jedi25]

+1 for the Hardcore full realism arena..

This is a great idea, maybe I would play more if this area was setup by HTC.

[Karnak]

Krusty is not diplomatic about it, but he is mostly correct.

The "most pilots didn't see the one who got him" is greatly misinterpreted to mean "was flying straight and level on cruise settings when he was shot down by an enemy he never saw." While that certainly did happen at times, the phrase would most often mean "was in combat and never saw the guy who got him due to target fixation or inadequate situational awareness."  Many players are shot down in AH in the same way, despite the need for SA and ample opportunities to learn it and despite the icons.

Battle of Britain ace Bob Doe described almost being one of those "shot down and never saw the guy who got him" guys in his first fight.  He was flying a Spitfire Mk I against Bf110s and was sure he was the worst pilot in his squadron, had only been allow to fire a few rounds at the channel, and was very green.  He said it immediately became chaos, he got behind a Bf110 which tried to dive away, he followed it, fixated on it, and shot it down.  He kinda froze in surprise at having gotten the Bf110 and after his surprise wore off he pulled back on the stick to go back to the fight.  Just as he did so he saw tracers go past under him and then a Bf110 with the cannons firing flashed under him.  He ended up getting the second Bf110 as well, but recognized that pure blind luck had saved him and spent time thinking about how he could address that problem and as a result he stopped flying in tight formation and spent a lot of time looking around and behind himself.

Krusty did exaggerate how readily identifiable the letter codes and markings on other aircraft where in a melee.

[Aspen]

This arena sounds fun, but whatever numbers it got would likely come from the MA.  Spending resources to shuffle the existing 100 - 300 guys around probably doesn't make sense.  Its not a money maker and further pulls population levels down in arenas that are already almost empty sometimes.

[715]

Jet fighters have come forward on this very forum and said how they could read tail codes on other fighters up to a mile away (not fuselage codes, smaller tail codes).

You think that may be a tiny tiny exaggeration, perhaps?  The tail codes on typical P51s are about 7" tall.  At one mile they subtend an angle of 0.4 arcminute.  To be able to read that would require 20/3 vision.  You really think all those pilots have 20/3 vision?

[Puma44]

How could you possibly know this?  Those guys are dead.




Well I beg to differ with them.  Spotting other planes is not easy, PARTICULARLY if you don't have the traffic devices that airlines and military aircraft now have to clue you into where you should look to see the target.  Heck, we have passive TCAS on the Saratoga and I still have trouble picking planes out of the sky, even when I know where to look.  Was talking to one of Philadelphia's ATC people, a very nice and pretty lady who was also a pilot.  She said that when the ATC people took rides in real aeroplanes, the thing that most surprised them was how difficult it was to see other planes.  They're used to seeing the radar, of course, and we are not far removed in this game.  No-icons in AH is pretty close to real life, so far as I'm concerned.

- oldman

Oldman is absolutely correct.  Spot on description of the reality of the no icon issue.  

[Oldman731]

it is not difficult to see aircraft at 6000 yds. (~3.4 miles)


and as I've mentioned before, I can see a golf ball at 200+ yds (maybe 250 yds with sun behind) and I can barely pass the eye test to maintain my drivers license.

FYI a golf ball is smaller than an airplane.

Thank you, I had not realized that.

It's not difficult to see an airliner miles away, ESPECIALLY if you know which way to look.  Grim experience has taught us that spotting smaller planes is difficult, even at distances of less than one mile, particularly if you don't have advance knowledge of where to look.

- oldman

[Karnak]

Oldman is absolutely correct.  Spot on description of the reality of the no icon issue.  

Sorry, going to go with the guys who have actual experience.  Oldman is wrong.

Icons make snap IDs too easy, but no icons is farther from reality than with icons is.

[Puma44]

Sorry, going to go with the guys who have actual experience.  Oldman is wrong.

Icons make snap IDs too easy, but no icons is farther from reality than with icons is.

Well, I'm one of the guys with actual experience and you are dead wrong.  You are stuck in a close minded loop here in cartoon land.  You simply don't know what you're talking about.  Oldman is absolutely correct.

[SmokinLoon]

While sailing along at a liesurely 80mph in a cesspool 150 , I can pick out few of the cars driving on the roads below. I can differentiate bewteen school buses, sedans, pick ups, semi tractor-trailers, motocycles, etc. But I can't tell what brand or model. Typical alt is 1 - 3k.  Think about that. As I have said before if ubwere a us pilot in pto u could forget about German planes so it drastically eases the chore. Imo, thr current icon range is too generous.

[Karnak]

Well, I'm one of the guys with actual experience and you are dead wrong.  You are stuck in a close minded loop here in cartoon land.  You simply don't know what you're talking about.  Oldman is absolutely correct.

Ok, I'll go with every other person with actual experience, including my own.

In addition, something you aren't considering, icons also act as an leveling of the playing field tool where there are many different levels of hardware capability and eyesight.

There are changes I'd like to see to icons, but eliminating them is not appropriate.  The guys who think they should be eliminated are usually elitists who resort to insulting everybody who has a different opinion and ignoring any data that doesn't support them.  These are the guys who are killing the hobby by actively driving out anybody who doesn't meet their level of dedication to "purity".