Give it up Karnak. These fools are the AvA hijackers that were brainwashed by nrraven and the IL2 converts that have a never-failing pretentious belief that no-icons is the only thing that is realisitc, despite facts, details, historic accounts modern accounts, etc. These are the people that repeatedly turn to insults. The ONLY defense they have is to say "you are less of a person if you don't advocate no-icons" -- and they use this backhanded insult 100% of the time. Even when we've tried to explain the logical fallacy they are using and how this is an insult (even when it's a direct insult) they are so blind they cannot -- literally cannot -- understand they are simply insulting every person that doesn't agree with them. Time and time again many folks on this forum have tried and time and time again they simply ignore it and insult everyone.
And I was NOT exaggerating about IDing plane codes. Many's the time a downed pilot was recognized from a split-second glimpse of his plane, and seeing the codes on it. In a furball, a wild furball with planes zipping around and engaged all around, I've read many accounts where pilots recounted "so and so was up on my right, and I could see what's-his-name on my lower left engaging 2 more, and ahead of me I saw X and Y still in formation, and that's when I saw Z go down without so much as a word" -- this is quite common.
I can see the colors and livery of an airliner flying overhead at 50,000+, but in this game all you can see is a black blob that might vaguely be something with wings. I'm in a residential area that's quite a few miles from a local airport, and under the final approach leg. It's residential, though, so they have to stay a certain altitude up. I can still make out fine details, including oil stains, every detail on landing gears, engines, control surfaces, flaps, the windows, I can see inside the plane if it banks..... All while they're thousands of feet away.
Puma, you're just wrong. Dead flat absurdly wrong. As is Oldman. I'm not talking radar operators that don't know what a plane looks like. I'm talking people that stand in the tower looking out the windows. I'm not making sh** up like you and oldman are. There is actual science at work. The angle of light that hits the eye, the distance of the object, and what details can be distinguished from such things vs pixels on a screen. Somebody even took time to spell out the physics of it on these forums and you AvA hijackers simply ignored it, along with all the first-hand testimonials telling you you're all full of crap. At this point you, Puma, and Oldman, are the equivelant of Gaston and his made-up theories about how flight physics work... booed out of every forum because he religiously believes in things which defy physics, but he proclaims to be correct.
Also, you have absolutely NO right to call Karnak an elitist nor claim he's throwing out insults. EVERY time this conversation comes up the ONLY response from the "AvA vocalists" is to back-handedly insult people by saying you are better than everyone else because you play with no icons. You use key words and catch phrases to cloak your meanings but every time, without fail, you elitists (and that's not an insult, it is the definition of what you are doing) insult every other person no matter how inaccurate your stance or how wrong you are. You jump out of your chair to RALLY to oldman's side because oldman makes an absurd comment: "How do you know? All those guys are dead!" -- without stopping to consider the simply obvious response: Not the guys that shot them down. Not their wingmen. Not everybody else in the battle.
Ink, you're clouding the issues. Simply because you don't think it happened doesn't negate the fact that it happened. Many of Hartman's kills weren't aware he was right behind them. He would often go into a fight right behind an enemy plane, and he recounted "You had to get close, then closer, and closer still, until you thought you might hit" and he was known for firing off just 1 or 2 cannon rounds directly into an occupied P-51's radiator, because he knew that was a sure critical hit for the P-51. That plane would not make it back to base. In 5 minutes it would go down, regardless.
You're also totally clouding historic facts with your own game experiences. No way somebody looking for the enemy isn't going to be looking around? What? Do you even know anything how WW2 combat worked? Squadrons would form up, climb out, have to stay in formation, follow course changes, meet target destinations on a map, all the while spending hours in the air. They didn't know where the enemy was. The enemy could (and often was) already up and looking for them. Through sheer luck one of them will spot the the other first. The vast majority of engagements in WW2 air combat were one group attacking the other unsuspectingly. After that attack (usually after some are shot down) then they know the enemy are there... Usually they would dive away and return home afterwards, and that was the end of their "combat" for the day.
They didn't up a plane, start spraying ammo as soon as they were wheels up, fly for 5 minutes with a death wish, instantly know where the enemy furball was because they had already died in it and knew where it was, and they didn't have 15-20 years of flight experience like Aces High pilots often do. Further, you saying "there's no way they did that, because I don't do that" isn't even a valid argument. You are not them. You want to know how much flight training on-type the Soviet pilots got on the LaGG and Yak-1? 2 hours if they were lucky. 2 hours of flight training and then thrown into combat. They didn't even have combat schools. What they were teaching was how to do the math and how to navigate, and how to operate a high-tech engine system, and what lift is, to people that barely knew what an automobile was. Any combat training they got was sink or swim, or if they happened to get into 1 or 2 units that might already have a smart ace there who takes it upon himself on his own time to teach his fellow pilots. US training was better, but still not good. They trained pilots in the art of flying. They learned how to control their aircraft in all situations... But they didn't know how to teach combat tactics -- not like you might in the DA. You are totally framing the entire debate on your in-game experience. That's just now how it was in WW2.
As for you "They would SEE" -- well no matter how much you wish they would, they didn't. Even later on during Vietnam there's a famous incident where a flight of F-4s were heading home after a sortie and literally passed head-on through a formation of F-4s flying the other way. One one pilot saw it, it was in the blink of an eye. What with radar and all, it shouldn't have happened according to you.
P.S. WW1 pilots scarves were to wipe their goggles, because the engines used castor oil lubricant and it threw oil all over the pilot's face through the normal course of operating. I don't think you know what you're talking about when it comes to aviation history man. Your constant fanaticism againt AH icons further reinforces that notion.
Also, Saxman is quite correct. Icons do not mean you do any less work. Camo does not mean a plane in real life goes unspotted. Camo was stationary to protect a plane from attacks while it was parked. A moving target is vastly easier to see, especially aircraft. The human eye instinctively reacts to motion -- even the slightest of motion. Camo is shattered if the object moves. The belief that "oh, that's why camo was on planes in WW2, because they had no icons!" is absurd. Yet, it is a repeating theme from the AvA hijackers. It's all based on ingnorance of how things work in the real world.
Let me put this in a way that you AvA vocalists would put it.... Maybe YOU are all so obsessed with icons because YOU can't fly by looking at the plane. Maybe you see a neon sign and that grabs your attention like a mag-pie so you can't focus on the target itself? I know *I* don't look at the icon outside of the plane type. I know *I* don't use it for maneuvering and killing. I use it to ID the plane and get rough distance, then once I track the plane I'm barely looking at the icon. In fact I don't even notice it, since I'm looking too closely at the plane itself. So maybe you all just suck because I'm so much better at focusing my attention than you?
Yes... that's about how the AvA lot would phrase it.
