Who has the advantage?

[BaldEagl]

I posted this in another thread in the General Discussion forum but thought I'd also post it here as a teaching tool.

Here's the pic.  Essentially co-E near stall who has the advantage and why?  

[Gman]

Great idea, and I think you're going to get the phone book in terms of opinions.

Looks like a Spit1 vs a 109E, right?

If they are co-E at the moment of the snap, I would personally go with the Spit's position, and here's my reasons.  The 109 is inverted, while the Spit is already a little nose up, meaning it'll be easier for the Spit to go uphill and gain an energy and positional advantage by getting on top of the 109 before the 109 can roll and go uphill to do the same.  Now, the 109 will be obviously able to go downhill much more quickly than the Spit, especially with the negative G engine cutout- all the 109 pilot needs to do is pull back a little and he'll start gaining a big speed advantage, however he'll also be giving up position by going lower than the Spit while doing so, and even if he does this, all I would do in the Spit seat is a quick roll to the quick side and pull in behind him and chase, probably end up about 4 or 500 yards behind him at a max by the time I would start my dive.

So, that's my opinion, I can't wait to read some of the uber stick's ideas.  A lot comes down to pilot skill and aggressiveness too, I've been in that 109 position many times in various 109's and won by just extending a little after pulling into a dive and just outfighting the guy in the Spit position after resetting at 1 or 1.5k yards, but as I said, I think the Spit has a stronger position, considering these 2 planes are very very close in every aspect, and if the pilots were equal/same, as I said, the uphill attitude of the Spit should allow that pilot to get on top and have a commanding positional advantage to dictate how the fight will go.

Great thread idea, I like it.

edit - I see from the other post of this same pic it's from the BoB scenario, maybe you could post the film of this encounter if it was a 1v1 later so we could see how it actually played out for you.

[ink]

not enough details 

depends on who is flying...

I would assume equal pilots

was the spit coming down and 109 at top of loop-....

so many variables.

[Wiley]

If they're both near stall, I agree with Gman's assessment.  The Spit has the opportunity to follow the 109 down at that point.

Wiley.

[SirNuke]

misleading screenshot

the spit could be upside down for all we know

[Gman]

SirNuke and Ink have good points, and I thought about them as well.  I based my opinion on the fact that the picture is taken with the earth being level with the bottom of the screen, sort of a default position in external view from the Spitfire's position more or less in the film viewer.

Like I said, pilots being equal is a big thing, as I've been in that 109's spot so many times I can't count. I have a film of Rebull and I fighting in 109's from that almost exact same position, and I ended up getting an inverted shot during our fight when he passed in front of me pretty much exactly where the 109 is in the pic, but with the Spit being out in front more.  So two pilots that are decent and really really aggressive fighters, it's a pretty hard one to call.  Still, I believe that the Spit does have a slightly better position to either follow the 109 if it chooses to dive and separate, or hit the wep and hold that nose high position even if it is close to stall, and get on top of the 109.  One thing I really notice fighting guys like Bruv for example is that they constantly will try and get on top of you, and drag you up, which lowers your E state, which is the key to gaining an advantage of some kind, be it angles, position, whatever. 

[nrshida]

I think the Emil has the advantage because if they are both near stall the Spitfire has to nose down and his fuel is going to starve cutting his power and risking a nasty stall while the 109's isn't.

[Traveler]

looks to me like they  collide, neither wins and in real life both would have lost.

[Oldman731]

Emil. If both are at stall, the Emil is already headed downhill.

- oldman

[Randy1]

Once you get this close lag figures in a lot.

[uptown]

The Pee51 that zooms in for the pic    Booyahh! headshot 

[BaldEagl]

OK so here's more info.

The fight is as it apprears with the Emil rolling over the top of the Spit I.  The Emil ends up passing over the top of the Spit canopy to canopy at under 15 yards. 

Neither has the excess power to go nose up at this point. 

It's not a true one on one as both are in a small (approximately 10 plane) furball but let's set that aside for the purpose of this discussion.

Assume roughly equal pilot skill for the purposes of this discussion.

[SIK1]

You don't say at what alt this engagement takes place, but on the face of it I would say the spit has the advantage. The 109 is already in front of the spits 3-9 line and the spit can follow the 109 down by rolling in behind the 109 as it crosses over the top of the spit. By maintaining positive G the spit can do this without starving the engine of fuel, but in this case the spit's fuel starvation under negative G may even work in it's favor aiding in the ability to roll to the right. At the very least, depending on the altitude (above 16k the spit 1 is faster on MIL power than 109 is on WEP) if the spit has any WEP it can use it's speed at any altitude to separate and reset, or retreat.

[Latrobe]

At the exact moment of this screenshot, the Spit has the advantage. As SIK1 said, the 109 is already in front of the spits 3-9 line, and with both planes being near a stall the 109 can't do any climbing moves. But no fight is won until someone is dead and the 109 is very much not dead yet. Both these planes have very bad roll rates at low speeds. The 109 however is inverted and can easily pull back on his stick to get below the spit, dive away, pick up speed, and then reengage from a more advantageous position. The spit will have one heck of a hard time following the 109 into a dive since he'll have to roll over on his back to give chase because he can't push any negative G's; his engine will die out if he does. So he has to use that horrible roll rate at low speeds to roll over into the 109 and by the time he does get his nose around onto the 109, the 109 will have some good seperation, some speed, and more options than what he has in the picture.

[Gman]

I think the point about the roll rates near stall is probably the most important factor to come out of the ideas so far.  I honestly hadn't considered that, and was thinking in terms of regular roll rates of these planes at corner speeds, not near stall, which was stated in the OP.  I'd like to test that and see how slow the roll is of the Spit, as it would pertain to rolling and pulling into pursuit behind the 109 should it pull down into a dive, which if it is near stall, is likely the only available option for the guy in the 109...right?  I mean, how could he roll any way at near stall speed and have that be an advantage in this situation?

That said, I don't think the 109 pulling into a dive, building up "speed" as has been said, is necessarily that great of an option for the 109 position.  All it would be doing is trading alt, if it's available, again, as someone said, we don't know the alt available, but let's assume this is at 20k as it's in the scenario where most met at mid to higher alts.  So, the 109 diving, again, is just trading alt for speed, until the motor can start pulling the plane through the air, which takes time, the 109 isn't going to be increasing it's E state compared to the Spit by diving at all.  The Spit driver isn't going to sit frozen in time and space while the 109 dives, levels out, and builds up E to re engage - if he has any brains at all he'll roll and pull in behind the diving 109, which he should be able to do as he is behind that 3 to 9 line and has that advantage already as others have said.  Either that or continue to let his own E state build while the 109 dives, staying on top of the fight by doing so, again, gaining an advantage E state and positionally as well.   Even if the motor does cut out for a few seconds in the Spit, so long as he doesn't stall and go into a spin, no big deal, an instant without power isn't going to put the Spit into a position where it is at a disadvantage in this situation.  Again, though like I first said, and Latrobe said as well, the 109 isn't dead yet, and again, I've been in that spot and come out on top many times, but there's many variables to that, and if I had to put money on a fight, I would take the Spit's spot every time if I had to pick a seat to jump into.  

I looked at the event logs to see if it would give any light to who one this encounter, but Zacherof both killed and was killed by Spit1's in the last frame, numerous times between Lefty69, Loki, and Guthrie, so without knowing which name BaldEagle is, it's hard to say which fight this is from, and if the Spit in this situation won or lost, but I'm betting won.