Interesting Questions

[pembquist]

Wikipedia confuses me. The thing about the lift vectors: "By definition, lift is perpendicular to the oncoming flow.[1]:18 As the left wing moves up, its effective angle of attack is decreased,[1]:361 so its lift vector tilts back. Conversely, as the right wing descends, its lift vector tilts forward. The result is an adverse yaw moment to the left, opposite to the intended right turn."

I am confused because I don't know if this refers to an instant in time or a sustained turn and it seems to contradict how I understood it all.. I thought that deflecting the left ailerons trailing edge down increased the angle of attack of the airfoil at its location causing it to create more lift and drag and producing a rolling moment and a yawning moment. I can see how the upward motion of the wing would change the angle of the relative wind but only while the wing is rising in the roll. In a steady banked turn the outside wing travels a greater distance than the inside so it's relative wind should be faster causing more lift and keeping the plane in a bank and in a plane with neutral stability causing the plane to roll further. The wiki description seems to contradict this. Also this tilting lift vector thing, if the wing is flying at a reduced angle of attack but the same relative wind velocity wouldn't it be producing less lift so the magnitude of the rearward component be less despite the vector they are calling lift being tilted? I feel I am missing something here.

[FLS]

It refers to rolling into the bank at the start of the turn and rolling out at the end. That's the bit you're missing.

[earl1937]

Wikipedia confuses me. The thing about the lift vectors: "By definition, lift is perpendicular to the oncoming flow.[1]:18 As the left wing moves up, its effective angle of attack is decreased,[1]:361 so its lift vector tilts back. Conversely, as the right wing descends, its lift vector tilts forward. The result is an adverse yaw moment to the left, opposite to the intended right turn."

I am confused because I don't know if this refers to an instant in time or a sustained turn and it seems to contradict how I understood it all.. I thought that deflecting the left ailerons trailing edge down increased the angle of attack of the airfoil at its location causing it to create more lift and drag and producing a rolling moment and a yawning moment. I can see how the upward motion of the wing would change the angle of the relative wind but only while the wing is rising in the roll. In a steady banked turn the outside wing travels a greater distance than the inside so it's relative wind should be faster causing more lift and keeping the plane in a bank and in a plane with neutral stability causing the plane to roll further. The wiki description seems to contradict this. Also this tilting lift vector thing, if the wing is flying at a reduced angle of attack but the same relative wind velocity wouldn't it be producing less lift so the magnitude of the rearward component be less despite the vector they are calling lift being tilted? I feel I am missing something here.

If you read my post in this thread about adverse yaw and lift effects during a turn, that should clear it up for you. Don't know who posted that explanation on Wiki, but it is not quite true. consult the wind tunnel tests conducted by both Lockheed and Boeing during the 50's and you can't argue with that! I have trained hundreds of pilots, from primary to Airline Transport certificate and so far as I know, not one has had an accident! A student pilot is not interested in engineering answers, only answers to questions that they can picture mentally in their mind. The use of the terms "relative lift and resultant lift" makes it pretty clear in the students mind as to what is happening during a turn. Now we could get into all kinds of engineering explanations concerning subjects in this forum, but the vast majority of players in here are not studying to be engineers!!LOL

[FLS]

It's basic pilot stuff Earl, it's not engineering, and it's modeled in Aces High so anybody can see it by watching the ball.

[earl1937]

It's basic pilot stuff Earl, it's not engineering, and it's modeled in Aces High so anybody can see it by watching the ball.

OK, my friend, won't argue the point anymore with you, BTW, how many real life pilots have you trained?

[FLS]

OK, my friend, won't argue the point anymore with you, BTW, how many real life pilots have you trained?

I've only trained a few real pilots. They have all been polite, respectful, and happy to learn something new.

[hitech]

OK, my friend, won't argue the point anymore with you, BTW, how many real life pilots have you trained?

And how many flight sims have you written Earl.

HiTech

[earl1937]

And how many flight sims have you written Earl.

HiTech

I have written several curriculum's and training syllabus which were approved by the Federal Aviation Agency. Not trying, although it looks like it, to argue with anyone on this subject, just going on real life experences. I am surprised at you Hi Tech, being a pilot your self, but as you just pointed out, big, big difference in flight sim's and the real thing. My problem has been since I have been in this game, is to regard it as a training tool and recreactional site for both experienced and non-pilots, and I have just tried, as I did for 60 years, pass on my experences as I saw and lived them.
This is the best flight sim on line, that I can find and experience, its just a shame that more people out in the real world, have not a clue about this game. I bet there are some good marketing ideas which would be presented right here, if you gave people an opportunity to help build this game to the ultimate flight sim!

[FLS]

Earl if you check with the FAA you'll find that adverse yaw is a product of the greater lift on the rising wing creating more drag.

[earl1937]

Earl if you check with the FAA you'll find that adverse yaw is a product of the greater lift on the rising wing creating more drag.

Unless they have changed the FAA written exam for both private and commercial written exams, that question is there, and the correct answer is of course the rudder to correct for the adverse yaw created by the down aileron. 

[FLS]

Unless they have changed the FAA written exam for both private and commercial written exams, that question is there, and the correct answer is of course the rudder to correct for the adverse yaw created by the down aileron. 

And the reason for that is that the down aileron raises the wing creating more lift and drag as it rises than the descending wing. Once the bank is established you have less yaw because the lift is equal on the wings while maintaining the bank. I'm sure you know that you use more rudder entering the turn than maintaining it.

[ink]

..... My problem has been since I have been in this game, is to regard it as a training tool and recreactional site for both experienced and non-pilots,

Earl first off for your enthusiasm....

just wanna say.....This game is about 1 thing and 1 thing only....Virtual Combat......using ww2 equipment, with excellent FM....its not a training tool nor is it meant to be....its not WW2 online....nor is it meant to be....its not a flight sim....or any sim for that matter it is a game above all else....

just something to think about(because you are gonna get highly frustrated if you continue to think that this game is supposed to be a "sim" )

 

[DaveBB]

This is the ultimate BBS thread, because it exemplifies what people have been repeating for years and years "How would you know, you've never flown a World War II plane before".  Now we have a real life Air Force pilot, who has flown B-29s, A-26s, and even the ultra-rare P-82, and people are trying to tell him how the planes actually flew. LOL.  Earl1937 I find your threads extremely interesting, and try to read every one of them.  Keep up the good work sir!

[hitech]

This is the ultimate BBS thread, because it exemplifies what people have been repeating for years and years "How would you know, you've never flown a World War II plane before".  Now we have a real life Air Force pilot, who has flown B-29s, A-26s, and even the ultra-rare P-82, and people are trying to tell him how the planes actually flew. LOL.  Earl1937 I find your threads extremely interesting, and try to read every one of them.  Keep up the good work sir!

DaveBB:Earl is a very enthusiastic player and a very experienced pilot.I would never wish to debate Earl on best practices when piloting aircraft.And I would love to fly with Earl in my RV.

I have been wanting to make a series of video , mostly on where to look when performing maneuvers, hence the head cam. Here is my first attempt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulpdOHcCiNE


 But I do not see anyone telling early how a plane flew or how to fly a plane. I see a technical discussion of aerodynamics about what make planes fly. In this particular case, adverse yaw. A pilot must be taught about adverse yaw so as to know he must apply rudder to compensate for it. Thinking and remembering that a downward aileron causes drag is a good way to remember.

But i have learned that most pilots only have a basic understanding of the physics of flight. Pilots are taught in a way that they understand the basics of physics as is required to best operate an airplane. The diagram on the wiki sight is 100 % correct. But it also does not tell the entire story. It is showing what causes adverse yaw in a steady state roll. There is also adverse yaw immediately when applying aileron Pryor to the roll developing . This is basically do to the downward deflected aileron. But more accurately it is do to the shifting of the lift vs AOA curve due to the increase camber of the wing caused by the downward deflected aileron. This lift curve shift creates more lift & hence more induced drag and  possibly more profile/parasitic drag. Once the roll is steady state, (not a steady state turn but ROLL) then both wings must be producing approximately the same lift or the roll would be increasing or decreasing in RPM. The AOA is greater on one wing vs the other , but the camber is greater on the lower AOA wing so both are creating the same lift. The steady state condition is what the wiki is describing. Also that diagram is very similar to why makes a helicopter auto rotate.

Now notice  this quote from early "Don't know who posted that explanation on Wiki, but it is not quite true". With out any physics explanation of why he thinks it is not true. And when debated Earl simply states i have all this back ground I teach ,I fly and I have written articles.

HiTech

[FLS]

Nice video. 

Nice mirrors.