The High Yo-Yo Reversal

[shoresroad]

I'm no expert, but after being shot down probably a thousand times over the last 9 months and watching the films of my death, I'm seeing a real trend among the top pilots who kill me...a super tight high climbing sudden reversal that resembles a 180 degree pivot. Sometimes it's a true loop, but more often than not it is a pivot at the top of a steep climb or a steep climb with a 180 degree role at the top then nose down that can often beat a flat turn or oblique loop.  It's how many top sticks win the game of angles and get inside my reversal.

I started this thread just to get the discussion going.  I know there is a whole lot more to dogfighting, but when things get dicey and tight I now realize I can almost count on a sudden climb and some kind of a 180 degree pivot at the top with the pilot dropping on my head.  By working on both how to do this and how to counter it over the past 3 months my k/d has gone from about 0.75 to the 1.25 - 1.75 range.

I'm not suggesting anyone should become a "one trick pony" but this is one trick that I have been worn out with and I think should be in every noob's offensive and defensive game plan from day one.

My take, yes you need to work on SA, energy management, other maneuvers.  But the high yo-yo reversal is difficult to master and counter (at least for me) and so often used in the MA by top sticks I think it should be high on the list of first things a noob should be working on immediately.  It became almost my routine manner of death from good sticks, and now that I'm using it and defending against it as best I can I'm turning what used to be 1 or 2 reversal deaths into an occasional brouhaha that sometimes I now win against some pretty good sticks.  If nothing else I can sometimes make them work harder at killing me

Take it from here, experts and trainers...exemplary films would be a great start.

[JimmyD3]

Excellent write up Shoresroad. I too have this problem, and if they get on my 6 I might as well just give up. Very rarely do I survive and get them.

[FLS]

Sounds more like a barrel roll then a high yoyo shoresroad. When you fly by underneath it appears that the bandit is pivoting because your point of view is moving. It would help if you posted a film.

[Latrobe]

Sound like it might be a classic rope, or as FLS said it's a barrel roll and the pivot at the top is the moment you're overshooting. Film would be a huge help in explaining this stuff, I'll see if I have any saved of these two situations.

[Randy1]

Shoresroad what plane do you fly most?

[JOACH1M]

The loop is what that Japanese ace used (can't think of name) to just destroy wildcats and such by stalling them out for an easy kill.


Everything else is what I call "roping" like I'm pulling you up behind (you thinking you have a shot to get me) but you lose your airspeed a lot faster than I did because you pulled so hard to get behind me (which killed your energy). As I'm above you on verge of complete stall I would cut throttle and roll over and begin to come down as you spin helplessly.

[Tank-Ace]

In the K4, I make extensive use of roping and high yo-yo's. Because you can't really maneuver with a lot of planes, you have to make use of your engine power to generate angles in the vertical. A big reason I like the high yo-yo is that it gives you a great opportunity to unload your aircraft, and make a much easier shot.

One thing I find that (personally) throws me when I'm going for a yo-yo is when my target split-S's. It increases vertical separation (and a good pilot won't squander a lot of altitude on one kill), as well as putting your direction of travel relatively close to 180 degrees away from your attacker.

[shoresroad]

Thanks for everybody's feedback so far.  Rather than a bunch of replies, this is to FLS, Latrobe and Joach1M:

IRL I have a civilian pilot's license (single engine land) including some basic aerobatics training in a Great Lakes Biplane.  Does that make me a better player in AH...NO!

But what I'm seeing in one version of this maneuver is what I was taught as a Hammerhead Stall.  Climb straight up full throttle at about an 80 degree angle, and then just before the stall and still at full throttle kick hard rudder towards the torque pull and the plane will snap around 180 degrees.  You can control the stall point by pulling back on your throttle for just a moment, but the rudder kick is at full throttle as you're counting on the torque to snap you around more than the rudder.  It is a pretty violent maneuver.  In AH I have asked two very good pilots to show me their version of this maneuver and one did exactly as described above but throttled back a bit to avoid going into a spin from the snap of the torque.  The other pilot was able to do it full throttle with WEP and maintain control of his plane.  I haven't been able to pull it off yet without throttling back, but at full throttle with WEP his reversal was an amazingly quick pivot.

The other version I have seen done two ways.  Straight up at about 80 degrees, then a 180 degree roll inverted and then stick full back with flaps out and just enough throttle to get over the top but keep the loop as tight as they can as they pull their nose up.  The other version they begin the roll during the climb but do basically the same thing at the top.  I also see a little rudder and/or aileron as they go over the top to get their nose where they want it headed as they come down.

This is not a barrel roll as I was taught IRL, but I was not taught combat ACM or any consideration given to flying against an opponent, so maybe it is.  I'm not on their six when I see this.  It is their move as we pass the 3-9 line on a co-alt merge.  It is also the move I see from good pilots if they come in with an Alt and E advantage and start to pick me to death...up and down over and over again with very quick pivots at the top.  The first version is the move I do see often used at the top of a rope, but I no longer follow anyone up for a rope.  If I'm at high speed sometimes I will go into a merge but not reverse and just look back to watch their reversal.  If it's super snappy it gives me an idea of the caliber of pilot I'm about to go up against and I very often see some form of this.  Of course I don't do this at slow speeds as they will immediately be on my six.

I'll try to find some film, but I was mostly watching all this 2 or 3 months ago and now it is buried in a million other films.  But the next time I see one I will post the film.

I'm also going to go back to my trainer to see if he's still active and ask him to beat me to death in the vertical once a week so I can continue to work on this

[shoresroad]

Shoresroad what plane do you fly most?

I fly bombers about 50% of the time and fighters the rest of the time.  And I get bored with any plane after about 3 sorties (let alone 3 weeks or 3 months).  So knowing I will always be a Jack of all Trades and a Master of None by doing this I have a hand full of favorites I fly, those being the P-47, F4U1-A, Spitfires, Ki-84 and the 109's.  I do better with this small group than by falling asleep from "same plane" boredom in the middle of a dogfight

[Randy1]

Of late I have made myself watch the speed indicator on a vertical chase then break off early if the closure is weakening.

Old P38 AH threads speak of a P38 flop at the top of the rope.  Not sure how that was done either.

[FLS]

If you watch films from the fixed view with trails on you can usually see what the other player is doing.

[Traveler]

I think we all need to see what you see and film is the only answer.

[shoresroad]

If you watch films from the fixed view with trails on you can usually see what the other player is doing.

Hi FLS,

Yep, that's how I figured out what these guys were doing to get around on me so fast at the top.  It's not their only move, but definitely one of the "go to" moves for many.  It keeps the fight almost entirely vertical and I've found it difficult to counter or execute.  But it's what I'm working on currently and just thought it might make for a good conversation.

[shoresroad]

I will get a new film or find an old film as soon as possible.  In the mean time here is a definition of a Hammerhead Stall that describes what I'm seeing in the first case:

1/4 loop (pull or push) to vertical, as momentum/airspeed decreases, rudder is applied and the aircraft rotates around its yaw axis, the nose falls through the horizon and points towards the ground, a momentary pause is made to draw the vertical down line, and 1/4 loop to level flight. This figure is sometimes called a stall turn which is a misnomer because the aircraft never actually stalls. The manoeuvre is performed when the aeroplane decelerates through 20 - 30kts (more or less, depending on the aeroplane flown) of airspeed. The cartwheel portion of the hammerhead is performed with full rudder and full opposite aileron. Gyroscopic forces from the propeller during the rapid rate of yaw will produce a pitching and rolling moment and a degree of forward stick will be required to keep the aeroplane from coming off-line over the top. The yaw is stopped with opposite rudder while the ailerons and elevator remain in position, then once the yaw is stopped and the aeroplane is pointed down vertically, all controls are returned to neutral together. Although they can be flown left or right in any aeroplane with the proper technique, a hammerhead is best flown to the left with a clockwise rotating prop, and to the right with an anticlockwise rotating prop (as in a Yakovlev type), due to propeller torque/gyroscopic effects.

[katanaso]

Of late I have made myself watch the speed indicator on a vertical chase then break off early if the closure is weakening.

Old P38 AH threads speak of a P38 flop at the top of the rope.  Not sure how that was done either.

Randy, it's actually pretty easy.  At the top of the climb, cut one engine, rudder over towards the cut engine, and turn in that direction.  You'll be able to seemingly pivot the 38 on its tail.