Generation War

[SmokinLoon]

'tis a sad deal that such issues of politics and finger pointing can't be left at the front door when plights of the individual soldiers and their stories are being told.  Truth be told that the common every day German soldat was no different than the common every day US soldier (or UK, French, Japanese, Soviet, Polish, Italian, Canadian, etc).  Those individuals did not start the war, they didn't devise the political BS, they simply answered the call as most patriotic people would do if their country called.  Stop and think how many fools in todays world eat up what the media and government fees them to this day???  These individuals had mothers and fathers, family traditions, hobbies, hopes and dreams, etc, just like everyone in these forums.  To place a blanket statement to any group be it Nazi, Soviet, Japanese Imperialist, US GI "rogues", SS, etc, etc, is to rob those individuals within those organizations who were just like you and me and NOT of the rubber stamp label of their due humanity.  Not every Nazi pulled the trigger on a Jew, not every Japanese Imperialist used a POW for bayonet practice, not every Italian fascist murdered civilians on a whim, and not every Soviet soldier raped and pillaged as he ran through German territory. If people have become so quick to point fingers and engage in the political babble of "which side did what and when and that group are more 'badder", then the stories of the individuals and their struggles and their ability to deal and cope with those struggles, but it winner or loser, can't be examined with an open mind. And that is a travesty.   

The German Wehrmacht soldiers on the Ost Front were hardly any different than any other solders anywhere else in the world.  Don't kid yourself.

I'll be looking for "Generation War" when it comes out.  Thanks for the heads up! 

[Rich46yo]

The role of the German army in the genocide has been one of the best kept secrets for decades. Now the truth is starting to come out, and many who prefer to write history "their" way dont like it.

The German Wehrmacht soldiers on the Ost Front were hardly any different than any other solders anywhere else in the world.  Don't kid yourself.

Im sorry but thats just not true.

The USMC in the pacific was fighting a murderous enemy that wasnt a signatory to the Geneva Convention and neither gave or ask for any quarter. How do you show mercy to an enemy committed to die at any cost? Even then, once the threat to our troops was removed, Allied troops were very merciful to Japanese civilians.

Both Japanese and German soldiers were raised in Martial society's who taught their children their future enemies were racial inferiors and that mercy towards them would be considered a weakness. To understand the mores of the soldiers one first has to understand what they were first taught as kids and young men in their respective countries. Most of these young soldiers had 5 to 10 years of instruction that their racial enemies were little more then vermin.

Germany however was a Christian country where being a soldier was an honorable profession. There WAS conflict in some circumstances with carrying out genocidal orders and these moral conflicts helped create the Historical record of the Wehrmact's  participation the the Holocaust. Much of it in the tortured letters written home by deeply scarred young Germans who were so shocked by what was happening they didnt give a damn about the Nazi censors.

That it happened isnt what surprises ; What does surprise is that is was committed by such an honorable, Christian, western people.

Read Ian Kershaw if you want a real focused look at what happened in German society that led to the extermination of entire races. Ian is a fantastic Historian and really delves deep. I was a little surprised to see just how ad-hoc and unplanned the beginnings of the Holocaust was. The Nazis indeed were deeply worried about public opinion and danced around it even after the fog of a two front war kept many Germans from thinking of anything else but their own survival.

[SmokinLoon]

The role of the German army in the genocide has been one of the best kept secrets for decades. Now the truth is starting to come out, and many who prefer to write history "their" way dont like it.
 Im sorry but thats just not true.

The USMC in the pacific was fighting a murderous enemy that wasnt a signatory to the Geneva Convention and neither gave or ask for any quarter. How do you show mercy to an enemy committed to die at any cost? Even then, once the threat to our troops was removed, Allied troops were very merciful to Japanese civilians.

Both Japanese and German soldiers were raised in Martial society's who taught their children their future enemies were racial inferiors and that mercy towards them would be considered a weakness. To understand the mores of the soldiers one first has to understand what they were first taught as kids and young men in their respective countries. Most of these young soldiers had 5 to 10 years of instruction that their racial enemies were little more then vermin.

Germany however was a Christian country where being a soldier was an honorable profession. There WAS conflict in some circumstances with carrying out genocidal orders and these moral conflicts helped create the Historical record of the Wehrmact's  participation the the Holocaust. Much of it in the tortured letters written home by deeply scarred young Germans who were so shocked by what was happening they didnt give a damn about the Nazi censors.

That it happened isnt what surprises ; What does surprise is that is was committed by such an honorable, Christian, western people.

Read Ian Kershaw if you want a real focused look at what happened in German society that led to the extermination of entire races. Ian is a fantastic Historian and really delves deep. I was a little surprised to see just how ad-hoc and unplanned the beginnings of the Holocaust was. The Nazis indeed were deeply worried about public opinion and danced around it even after the fog of a two front war kept many Germans from thinking of anything else but their own survival.

I'm well aware of Ian Kershaw's writings, he has written some phenomenal work.  You're observation on the beginnings of the Holocaust being "unplanned" is spot on, while there may have been some verbiage thrown around early in the 1930's by the higher level Nazis, but it was not spelled out as to how or when.

With regards to the comparison of the Ost Front and the PTO, be careful to not assume that just because two sides signed the Geneva Convention that they didn't gut each other alive when they had the chance.   

[GScholz]

I have always had a problem with all this. So, if one side doesn't follow the rules, and the other side follows suit for the sake of leveling the playing field{ in this case the usmc},can they still be prosecuted after the war for breaking the rules?

Yes, but not within reason. For example, if the enemy repeatedly does not honor surrenders or fake surrendering only to ambush etc. you are no longer required to honor surrenders. However that does not give you the right to for example summarily execute prisoners that you manage to capture. At least not without condemning them to death for capital crimes, spying or other valid reasons in some sort of tribunal first. Under no circumstances are you allowed to deliberately target civilians no matter what the enemy does or who's side the civilians are on. Haditha is a prime example of going too far.

[Wildcatdad]

Yes, but not within reason. For example, if the enemy repeatedly does not honor surrenders or fake surrendering only to ambush etc. you are no longer required to honor surrenders. However that does not give you the right to for example summarily execute prisoners that you manage to capture. At least not without condemning them to death for capital crimes, spying or other valid reasons in some sort of tribunal first. Under no circumstances are you allowed to deliberately target civilians no matter what the enemy does or who's side the civilians are on. Haditha is a prime example of going too far.

Thanks for clearing that up for me GS! By the way, I love your avatar!
 

[GScholz]

Yeah, the Oscar he won for that role was very deserved!   

[ozrocker]

War is horror. Men become apathetic, unfeeling.
Has happened throughout History, by men from all walks of life.
A part of man that's always been there.
One is no better or worse than the other.
They are all equally evil. Nothing justifies it.
We as Americans are no better.- My Lai 1968





                                                                                                                                     Oz

[Wildcatdad]

War is horror. Men become apathetic, unfeeling.
Has happened throughout History, by men from all walks of life.
A part of man that's always been there.
One is no better or worse than the other.
They are all equally evil. Nothing justifies it.
We as Americans are no better.- My Lai 1968





                                                                                                                                     Oz

Well said oz.

[Brooke]

One is no better or worse than the other.
They are all equally evil. Nothing justifies it.
We as Americans are no better.- My Lai 1968

I must disagree.

My Lai is of course horrible and reprehensible, and it was 500 people killed.  Stalin, Mao, and Hitler killed millions (or tens of millions).  So, first, there is an enormous difference in scale -- 500 vs. 20,000,000, for example.

Also, America as a nation was not setting out to exterminate any races or classes of people, or to depopulate entire nations.  So, second, there is a significant difference between a rogue group of a 200 people (which wasn't following its nation's dictates) vs. a whole nation and its accepted leadership.

As for nothing justifying war, I think that at least the defender is justified in fighting back.

"We as Americans are no better"?  Cheers? and

Well said oz. salute

In my view, there is a vast difference between (1) rightly acknowledging that America has been far from perfect and (2) stating that America is the same as Nazi Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, or Mao's China.

[Edited to make sure my response was even tempered.  ]

[BoilerDown]

In my view, there is a vast difference between (1) rightly acknowledging that America has been far from perfect and (2) stating that America is the same as Nazi Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union, or Mao's China.

Fortunately we were never put in the position of having to fight on our own soil or up to our doorstep.  We could afford to take the moral high ground.  We'll never know what we would have done to preserve the nation until we're actually put in that position.

Another thing I'll say is that the moral high ground is a valuable asset to have.  Something we've needlessly given up in more recent wars and times.

[BreakingBad]

One is no better or worse than the other.
They are all equally evil. Nothing justifies it.
We as Americans are no better.- My Lai 1968

I get so tired of people trying to draw a moral equivalence to wartime atrocities.  Comparing My Lai to say, the Rape of Nanking, the soviet purges in Poland and other systematic genocides with untold scale of human suffering.   My Lai was what, a couple hundred people murdered by rogue elements of a military unit, vs the state sanctioned/ordered murder by an entire military.

I have an idiot dear friend who honestly believes the US has no moral authority to protest Assad using chemical weapons because the USA used phosphorus rounds in Fallujia in the Iraq war....against combatants. 

[wpeters]

I must disagree.

My Lai is of course horrible and reprehensible, and it was 500 people killed.  Stalin, Mao, and Hitler killed millions (or tens of millions).  So, first, there is an enormous difference in scale -- 500 vs. 20,000,000, for example.

Also, America as a nation was not setting out to exterminate any races or classes of people, or to depopulate entire nations.  So, second, there is a significant difference between a rogue group of a 200 people (which wasn't following its nation's dictates) vs. a whole nation and its accepted leadership.

Now running in a different way America has a dark and bloody history..

1  We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness  We then have slaves for over 100 years..  Many of whom were treated horribly.

2.   What about the Native Americans { Indians is Politically incorrect}  Taking the land without paying and the mass murders of Indians.

3 The bombing of Industrial Germany. Many civilians lost there lives because of that.

4. I love America.

5 I just hate it when people  talk about the other countries and how immoral they are in war.  People need to realize that we are no better. The base nature of man is the same.

6. Oz  you have said it
            War is horror. Men become apathetic, unfeeling.
Has happened throughout History, by men from all walks of life.
A part of man that's always been there.
One is no better or worse than the other.
They are all equally evil. Nothing justifies it.
We as Americans are no better.- My Lai 1968


If we need rules of how to fight in war doesnt that mean something is wrong with the World...

"Love your enemys, do good to them that despitefully use you. For in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on there head."     Remember that God will make everyone of those Leaders pay for there crimes against humanity with their own Horrible room in HELL!!!


May God Bless America and help her to KEEP her Hands CLEAN

LtCondor

[BreakingBad]

5 I just hate it when people  talk about the other countries and how immoral they are in war.  People need to realize that we are no better. The base nature of man is the same.

Let the coffee shop intellectual hand wringing begin. 

Generally I agree that people are mostly the same, take a thousand and random and they will be substantially similar to another random thousand.

The USA however, goes to great lengths to avoid collateral damage in war, perhaps even at the expense of our own soldiers.  We have a free press to report outrages and bring them to public light.  We have not engaged in war to take land and subjugate foreign peoples.  We spend vast sums both public and private in foreign aid and humanitarian causes.  We open our borders to students and the oppressed, and as 911 proved to our disadvantage.

Funny thing is it is mostly people in the west who spend so much time bending over backwards to draw some moral equivalence.  Stalin called them useful idiots.  I don't find them that useful.

What is surprising to me is despite how universally 'despised' the USA, gosh there is just a line out the door to get here.

[Tank-Ace]

I think we can safely disregard almost all of wpeters post as irrelevant drivel.

[SmokinLoon]

Now running in a different way America has a dark and bloody history..
1  We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness  We then have slaves for over 100 years..  Many of whom were treated horribly.
2.   What about the Native Americans { Indians is Politically incorrect}  Taking the land without paying and the mass murders of Indians.
3 The bombing of Industrial Germany. Many civilians lost there lives because of that.
4. I love America.
5 I just hate it when people  talk about the other countries and how immoral they are in war.  People need to realize that we are no better. The base nature of man is the same.
6. Oz  you have said it
            War is horror. Men become apathetic, unfeeling.
Has happened throughout History, by men from all walks of life.
A part of man that's always been there.
One is no better or worse than the other.
They are all equally evil. Nothing justifies it.
We as Americans are no better.- My Lai 1968
If we need rules of how to fight in war doesnt that mean something is wrong with the World...
"Love your enemys, do good to them that despitefully use you. For in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on there head."     Remember that God will make everyone of those Leaders pay for there crimes against humanity with their own Horrible room in HELL!!!
May God Bless America and help her to KEEP her Hands CLEAN
LtCondor

It appears someone has read a high school history book and listened to an apologist teacher at the same time.  So much of what you've said came straight from the heart and not with any historical context what-so-ever.  Yeah, we all know slavery was bad, it always has been ***in our modern day manner of thinking***.  But, you can't hold our modern level of righteousness to the same standards of 100, 200, 500, or 1000 years ago.  

What if I told you that in 100 years it will be illegal to own pets and they will have the right to vote.  Seriously.  Stop and think of the context of that.  In 1728, if you were to have asked that question to the average person about X group of people (blacks/slaves, Indians, women, non property owners, etc), the answer would have been much the same.  Historical context.  Learn to view history through the eyes and ideology of the time and you'll perhaps learn a few things.  

and seriously, read up on the "Greta Leap Forward".  Then try and find which country can fit in the same group as Mao's China.  Stalin's Soviet Union?  Maybe.  Hitler's Nazi Germany?  Nah, barely a fraction of Mao's totals.  Others have already pointed out comparing My Lai and most of the other atrocities is a bit far fetched, they occurred under two very different sets of circumstances.