Author Topic: Best Heavy Fighter  (Read 28318 times)

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #660 on: December 16, 2013, 04:43:59 AM »
Scuttlebutt = discussions amongst the servicemen, & no press or public relations-B.S.

Spurdle meant Tempests, they were un-hit by the LW & could've been vectored in A2A attack..

No ground control alert - or orders to intercept either, a real cock-up..

They were based at Volkel, & many were up on patrol elsewhere.. & weren't recalled soon enough..

As you noted, M.M.- most TAF Spitfire & Typhoon units had been strafed..

& where were the mighty P-38/47/51s in their thousands?  They should've been waiting in ambush..
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 04:51:13 AM by J.A.W. »
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #661 on: December 16, 2013, 04:45:54 AM »
Scuttlebutt = discussions amongst the servicemen, & no press or public relations-B.S.

Agh, rumors, speculation.

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #662 on: December 16, 2013, 04:57:55 AM »
M.M., are you really so uninformed?

Have you ever seen a news report  - about which - you have 1st hand knowledge?

Or about something that happened when you were there & were involved in?

& do you know how military propaganda.. ..'spin' works? Its all basically B.S..

That is why the guys in the know, & who were there, know for sure - it was a debacle, really..
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #663 on: December 16, 2013, 05:11:17 AM »
Spurdle meant Tempests, they were un-hit by the LW & could've been vectored in A2A attack..

And many Tempests were already flying a mission.

#3 took off at 08:20 for Paderborn Gone to far to be recalled
#56 took off shortly before 09:00 for Munster Gone to far to be recalled
#486 took off at 09:15 for Hanover  Requested a return and was so granted when reports of e/a the B-80 area.

So why didn't Spurdel and and Baird (#274) put a/c in the air? Incompetence on their part.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 05:19:35 AM by MiloMorai »

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #664 on: December 16, 2013, 05:18:58 AM »
& where were the mighty P-38/47/51s in their thousands?  They should've been waiting in ambush..

9th AF
Over the Bulge and Alsace/Loraine doing what they were suppose to be doing.

(Eighth Air Force):: 2 missions are flown. Mission 774: 845 bombers and 725 fighters are dispatched to hit oil installations and rail bridges and junctions in W Germany visually and by PFF; they claim 23-1-3 Luftwaffe aircraft including a jet fighter; 8 bombers and 2 fighters are lost: 1. 451 B-17s are sent to hit an oil refinery at Magdeburg (11); secondary targets are the Henschel marshalling yard at Kassel (292) and the Gottingen marshalling yard (26); targets of opportunity are Hadamar (12), Wetzlar (12), Dillenburg (15), Koblenz (11), Wetter (12), Limburg (8), Kirchbunden (7) and other (22); 2 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 71 damaged; 10 airmen are KIA, 8 WIA and 18 MIA. Escorting are 327 of 374 P-51s; they claim 17-1-1 aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair. 2. 109 B-17s are dispatched to hit oil industry targets at Dollbergen (54) and Ehmen (24); targets of opportunity are the Koblenz marshalling yard (12), Limburg (4) and other (5); 3 B-17s are damaged beyond repair and 43 damaged; 10 airmen are KIA. Escort is provided by 199 P-47s and P-51s without loss. 3. 273 B-24s hit the Lutzel (56) and Guls (30) rail bridges at Koblens, the Irlich rail bridge (57) and the Remagen rail bridge (6); targets of opportunity are Andernach (26), Engers rail bridge (9), Trier (1) and others (6); 1 B-24 is lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and 63 damaged; 20 airmen are KIA, 8 WIA and 10 MIA. The escort is 66 of 70 P-51s without loss. 4. 12 of 12 B-17s fly a screening force mission; they are 8 minutes late for their escort and are attacked by Fw 190s when 50 miles (80 km) ahead of the bombers; they claim 6-0-2 aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost and 1 damaged beyond repair; 45 airmen are MIA. Escort is supposed to be 23 of 26 P-51s. 5. 2 of 5 B-17s fly an APHRODITE mission against Oldenburg without loss. 6. 11 of 11 P-51s escort 9 F-5s and 1 Spitfire on a photo reconnaissance mission over Germany without loss. 7. 25 P-47s and P-51s escort 3 of 4 Mosquitoes on a special operations mission without loss. Mission 775: 5 B-24s and 3 B-17s drop leaflet on Belgium and Germany during the night without loss.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 05:24:58 AM by MiloMorai »

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #665 on: December 16, 2013, 05:25:48 AM »
M.M., are you really so uninformed?

Have you ever seen a news report  - about which - you have 1st hand knowledge?

Or about something that happened when you were there & were involved in?

& do you know how military propaganda.. ..'spin' works? Its all basically B.S..

That is why the guys in the know, & who were there, know for sure - it was a debacle, really..

Agh yes, the fog of war.

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #666 on: December 16, 2013, 12:09:01 PM »
What happened to 'Ultra' then, & why no warning?

How could Ultra (radio intercepts) be off when land lines would do the job.

correction

it would appear #3 and #56 did get a recall for they made 6 claims in the Eindoven area between 09:35 and 10:05.

#3 took off at 08:20 for Paderborn Gone to far to be recalled
#56 took off shortly before 09:00 for Munster Gone to far to be recalled

Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #667 on: December 16, 2013, 03:45:12 PM »
This is how Bob Spurdle learned about the attack..

"New Years Eve came & went with a big thrash & we staggered off to bed confident it would be our last year of war.
Next day, as we drove along the road from Uden to Volkel, I spotted some low-flying planes heading our way. It was about 9 o' clock.

'109's! Out!' & we slid to a stop & rolled out & into a snow-filled ditch. The Jerries roared across the airfield in front of us, firing in a sustained crackle of MG & cannon-fire.

They didn't turn for another go, but continued on towards Eindhoven, some 12 miles away.
We dusted ourselves off, & climbing back into the Jeep, sped off to dispersal.

'What's up?' I asked the duty airman.
'We've just been strafed! They just made one pass!'
'Right! Have you rung Ops?'
'Yes - the officer just said they were too busy to talk to me. They won't answer our phone calls!'

This was madness."

Spurdle ordered a section scramble for airfield defence & climbed into his own Tempest..

"...on taking off my wind-shield got covered in oil - someone hadn't cleaned out weepage trapped in the spinner... I was furious at having to abort,
 &  even more so when the others returned after a hectic hour.
They had intercepted some 190's at tree-top height & 'Judy' ( F/O J.W. Garland) had shot 2 down in flames."

&,

"From prisoner interrogation we learned that Volkel was to have been hit by a force of 90 machines,
but due to a fluke only 4 or 5 arrived & they continued on to Eindhoven where almost complete
carnage  wiped out the Canadian, Polish & 124 Wing's planes."

Bit of a poor show, all around - apparently..
 
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline Saxman

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #668 on: December 16, 2013, 04:35:34 PM »
So.... Does anyone remember what this thread was even about anymore?
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline BluBerry

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #669 on: December 16, 2013, 04:39:40 PM »
So.... Does anyone remember what this thread was even about anymore?

No, but at least this thread went 5 full pages before jaw showed up.  :cheers:

Offline Triton28

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #670 on: December 16, 2013, 04:48:18 PM »
So.... Does anyone remember what this thread was even about anymore?

The P-38.   :)
Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
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Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #671 on: December 16, 2013, 04:51:56 PM »
Good one on Sm,&  funny, coz I know he done rate the F4U over that thing..

Yeah, & those two previous posts sure add some useful & interesting contributions to the subject..

Oh, wait.. no they don't..

So..

Why not step up guys, produce some goods..

 &  you don't - ..really.. ..surely.. - have to be quite so bloody lame..
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #672 on: December 16, 2013, 06:05:40 PM »
I don't know how anyone would call Operation Bodenplatte as a success for the Luftwaffe.  The only success the Luftwaffe enjoyed was tactical surprise but failed to capitalize on it and achieve tactical and strategic air superiority and paid dearly for it.

Adolf Galland said Operation Bodenplatte was "the final dagger thrust into the Luftwaffe's Breast".............The Luftwaffe received its death blow at the Ardennes offensive"

ack-ack
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Offline Triton28

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #673 on: December 16, 2013, 06:16:49 PM »

Yeah, & those two previous posts sure add some useful & interesting contributions to the subject..

Oh, wait.. no they don't..

So..

Why not step up guys, produce some goods..

 &  you don't - ..really.. ..surely.. - have to be quite so bloody lame..

The OP asked what we thought was the best heavy fighter in the game.   I gave my opinion and a few reasons behind it..   Stop being a such a tard.   

Thank you and good luck.
Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
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Offline J.A.W.

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Re: Best Heavy Fighter
« Reply #674 on: December 16, 2013, 06:17:09 PM »
Correct A-A, but  Bodenplatte was an embarrassment for the Allies too..

& Galland, to be fair - had a conflict of interest there..

He'd been harbouring those fighters to use in a massive 'Big-Blow' against the 8th AF..

But ol' boss-man Adolf H was always more keen on attack..
 & got his 'bomber baron' Peltz to take over..

Galland was doing a bit of a 'dummy spit' over being side-lined..
"Cybermen don't make promises..
Such ideas have no value."