Flaps usage in real combat

[Saxman]

I believe that for P-38s, Ki-43s, Ki-44s, Ki-84s and J2Ms the initial setting was a combat setting.  I am not sure if the N1K2-J's automatic combat flaps would deploy beyond 10 degree in heavy maneuvering or not.

Not sure about other planes, but as mentioned before, the Corsairs and Hellcats could set up to two notches of flaps (I think technically the blow-back worked on all flap settings, but beyond two notches there was a risk of the flaps jamming). I think each notch was 10 degrees, so these two at least could have up to 20 degrees.

Really wish HTC would allow model that. The German planes already have their leading edge slats so the mechanics for auto-deploying surfaces like these are already in place, so why not give the N1K2 it's automatic flaps, and the Corsairs/Hellcats their spring flaps.

[icepac]

Some planes suffer much less drag/e-reduction with flaps out than they should when you look at the plane in person and see the size and angles of deployed flaps.

[FLS]

Some planes suffer much less drag/e-reduction with flaps out than they should when you look at the plane in person and see the size and angles of deployed flaps.

That's cool that you can tell the actual amount of drag by just looking at it sitting on the ground. Do us all a favor and tell us what the drag currently is in AH and what it should be in order to be correct. Thanks.

[Ack-Ack]

Some planes suffer much less drag/e-reduction with flaps out than they should when you look at the plane in person and see the size and angles of deployed flaps.

I'm sure you have the data to back up your claims or is it like most stuff you post, nothing but fluff?

ack-ack

[icepac]

My point is that there are some minute adjustments that could be made in game to closer mimic the behavior of flaps and slats.

Aces High planes with slats seem to come to a dead stop when they come up but putting out barn door sized flaps have less of an effect on slowing the plane.

Slats were used because they induce less drag........though the camber change of the wing does allow higher angle of attack which increases drag.

My beef is that the slats have more drag than flaps.......maybe not as much as full landing flaps at maximum angle but landing flaps were never designed for anything but landing.

I've noticed, ackack, that you are absent from most threads discussing the flight characteristics of real life airplane operations and incidents which probably means you haven't the experience necessary.

What made you suddenly decide you had the experience to discuss how real life planes fly VS aces high planes?

[FLS]

Icepac you seem to be confusing your impressions with actual data. If you have useful information please post it. If you have a question about drag from flaps and slats, just ask.
 

[Brooke]

You can't tell just by flying around and your feel for things that this or that is out of whack.  You'd have to measure it first.

Then you have to have some info from the real-life plane (or at least from some comparable real-life tests) that shows what it should be.

Without these two things (measure it in game and know what it should be), there will be skepticism of claims that this or that is not in line with how it should be.

[icepac]

I guess that means nobody on this thread should be discussing the subject of the title.

[FLS]

It's easy to mislead yourself when you consider parts of aircraft in isolation instead of thinking about how they work together.
 

[Ardy123]

How often did pilots boast about their successes in these reports, ie inflate them more than what really happened? (ie maybe they didn't use flaps but disagreed with the directive so they claimed they did to spite the directive, etc...)

Its well known that all sides had inflated kill numbers which historians later rectified when access to records on both sides were available.

[Ack-Ack]

I've noticed, ackack, that you are absent from most threads discussing the flight characteristics of real life airplane operations and incidents which probably means you haven't the experience necessary.

What made you suddenly decide you had the experience to discuss how real life planes fly VS aces high planes?

I don't need to be a real life pilot to know when someone is talking nothing but BS...

ack-ack

[Brooke]

I guess that means nobody on this thread should be discussing the subject of the title.

There is a difference between discussing historical accounts of flaps usage in real combat (for a topic titled "flaps usage in real combat") and statements like "flaps have too little drag in AH".

I don't think it's inappropriate to give an opinion like "flaps have too little drag in AH" and love to discuss such things on the boards, but when you don't give any backup other than your own feeling on the matter, don't be annoyed or surprised when other people say things like "says you". 

[Tilt]

I listen to my father re his experiences and note that many a pilot believed this or that about how is aircraft flew best.

Much of these opinions originated more from the Officers Mess than learning in combat, where there was no real opportunity for trial and error learning.

I would agree with Angus that required pilot input on VVS craft was higher than contemporaries in the LW. In practice I believe that VVS aircraft were flown with less efficiency when pilots were subject to the heat of battle..... I think the question here is to what degree?

As the AH Yaks have fully rated engines there is no real consideration for WEP adjustment outside of normal rpm, mixture and throttle control. What AH lacks is the mixture element or any consequential modelling that gives nodding recognition that a pilot had to consider this.

Lavochkins had WEP settings that were achieved not only thru increased engine speeds but also thru drag reduction with respect to the engine cooling vanes.

Flight trim is already a manual function in AH

It would seem appropriate that there be some small "lag" in response to player inputs that represents the degree of cockpit automation. I suspect that this would in practice be very small as left hand stuff would have become very automatic over the period of training be it ever so short.

[asterix]

Hello.
Recently I learned a strange thing - P-40 pilots were forbidden to use flaps with guns switch turned on. http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs-documentviewer.php?id=3133 page 23 paragraph d.
So they didn't? And what about other plane's pilots? F.e. in interview of Ivan Ivanovich Kozhemyako, hero of 107 GIAP, he sayed that they used flaps when fighting bombers(?) but never with fighters.

What do you know or think?

The warning in the handbook seems like a safety issue. Combat procedures for a P-40 could be a little different in this case, but I am not shure. I think I have seen axis guncam footage in youtube where allied fighters have their flaps deployed during the dogfight. Don`t remember what footage exactly.

[Kweassa]

There are distinctly two different "schools of thought" concerning the historicity of micro-management of internal gadgetry during actual combat, in comparison with our tendencies as simulation gamers during simulated combat. I believe both sides have been adequately represented by some very good veteran players who posted before me, and therefore I probably need not repeat any of them.

I'll just say I agree with bozon. The interpretation of historical facts and anecdotes seem to suggest that while the use of "exotic tricks and maneuevers" did exist in the field, all other facts and statistics in regards to the gross majority -- the average and everyday combat pilots of those days -- would suggest that ignoring the manual/protocol/S.O.P. would have been considered as a very bad idea, which pilots would in most cases would actively tried to avoid -- assuming that such thought would even cross the mind in the first place during the confusion and terror of deadly combat.

It is also important to recognize anecdotes for what they are -- they are first-hand experiences and citations which works best in delivering the feelings and emotions of combatants to the listeners and readers. However, they are also notoriously inaccurate, most often embellished, exaggerated, straight-off bragging which in many cases cannot be cross-checked against historical data -- a modern-day "dime novel", or "wild-west story", if you will.

Ofcourse, I am not saying the pilots lied in their testamonies. I am sure that the pilots themselves were in everyway earnest in their testimonies, and they tell stories of how combat went down in the way they remember it. I'm sure they truly believe in everything they say, because they really do remember everything happening that way. However, it is a known fact that memory is a very, very unreliable thing.

I do believe that a handful few group of pilots -- whether they be experienced and adept, or just plain cocky and crazy with balls of steel -- would no doubt try their hand in fidgeting with all the set levers and buttons inside the cockpit when they had the chance, but considering the fact that rookie pilots with less than average 5 mission/sorties would likely make habitual mistakes of pushing the wrong button or pulling on the wrong lever, I'd wager that such practice was fairly uncommon and most pilots would adamantly try stick to rules and regulations. If anything, in times of critical danger, (contrary to popular belief) most people really can't think "outside the box" and would not be able to try anything crazy in the first place.