Flaps usage in real combat

[Brooke]

I have read or heard first-hand accounts of using flaps in combat for P-51's (vs. LW planes), P-38's (vs. LW planes and in one mock dogfight of a P-38 vs. a Spit 14), and F4U's (vs. Zeros of all things).  Those are the ones that I remember solidly.  I have vague recollections of reading first-hand accounts of using flaps in combat for F6F's and P-47's.

[GScholz]

Military power is also 3000 RPM. You're probably thinking of max continuous power.

You're right. My bad.

[bozon]

Yes one can find various crazy reports of using flaps, gears, bomb bay doors etc. in combat. Of course, the pilot always attributes his success to the wild card it pulled. Even, and especially if that move was forbidden by his commanders he'd emphasize it as it gave him more prestige.

When I read these, I can't help but thinking about pilots who lost combat. I have never read a report of a pilot that lost combat and died. This is very odd because statistics tell us that some pilots were shot down, but somehow their story never appears in the after action reports. The only logical conclusion is that in order to survive WWII air combat, it was absolutely vital that you fill an after action report.


Now seriously (for those that did not get it):
Same as in AH, the fact that the pilot pulled out his flaps does not mean that he won the fight just because of that, or that it even helped one bit. What we are missing are all the anecdotes of pilots who pulled these stunts and were killed inspite of it - or because of it. It always bring a smile to my face when I see a F4U in a furball with his flaps and gears out - I quickly switch target and blast him, then wait to see him complain in ch200 or PM how I am a no skill picker, which turn my smile into a big laugh. F4U is just an example because people talk so much about flaps and gear usage like they are some magic tricks, the basic premise applies to all planes.

I remember reading that in one RAF Mustang squadron the CO forbade the use of flaps in combat. He feared that pilots will lose fights to stalls or being picked and that the false confidence that the flap magic will encourage them to enter that kind of situations. Of course the pilot telling the story emphasized that point because he did just that and entered a prolonged low alt circle fight vs a 109. Maybe he won because of the little extra turn he got out of the flaps, but was he not picked by another 109 because he had his flaps out? Some people do dumb things and get away with it.

[Brent Haliday]

My favorite example of flaps use.  A P38 driver.

Lt. Royal Madden 370th FG, July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left. I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me. I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S. I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left. I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet. This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection. I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him. I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst. There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off. He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home. Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped. As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”

It sounds to me like he only notes maneuvering flaps, and the 60 degrees is the deflection angle at which he fired.

[Karnak]

It sounds to me like he only notes maneuvering flaps, and the 60 degrees is the deflection angle at which he fired.

Maneuvering flaps are the flaps.  He probably didn't fully extend them, but that is almost always a bad idea in AH too.

[FLS]

P-38's have a "maneuvering" flaps setting which is approximately half extended.

[wpeters]

It always bring a smile to my face when I see a F4U in a furball with his flaps and gears out -

Not a great move with gear out in combat.

In the F4f   it took 27 turns on a hand crank to raise your gear.  Think it was that way on a lot of plane.

[Saxman]

The Corsair's gear were powered, but their only purpose in combat was as dive brakes. You can find images of Corsairs on dive-bombing runs or rocket attacks with their gear extended. They wouldn't have been used in air-to-air combat, for all the reasons it's a bad idea in Aces High.

[Brent Haliday]

Maneuvering flaps are the flaps.  He probably didn't fully extend them, but that is almost always a bad idea in AH too.

Yes, it just sounded like the account was being put forward as a historic justification for the type of low altitude fully deployed flap, gear, bomb bay, low energy "ACM" we so often see in AH.  I so I wanted to point out that the 60' degree comment sounded more like the deflection angle than a flap setting to me, and therefore was in no way a historic justification for the usage we so often see in the video games.  Does the p38 flap even deploy to 60 degrees?

Just wanted to clarify my response.

[mtnman]

What we are missing are all the anecdotes of pilots who pulled these stunts and were killed inspite of it - or because of it.

That's a "partially" valid argument...

But, in order for it to be used legitimately in this argument we'd of course need to realize that we're also missing all of the anecdotes of pilots who didn't pull these "stunts" and were then killed in spite of that - or because of that.

Were more pilots killed as a result of using flaps, or as a result of failing to use them?

[Karnak]

Well, flaps were certainly seen as a combat tool by some, hence American and Japanese "combat" settings for flaps and the automatic flaps on the N1K2-J.

[bozon]

That's a "partially" valid argument...

But, in order for it to be used legitimately in this argument we'd of course need to realize that we're also missing all of the anecdotes of pilots who didn't pull these "stunts" and were then killed in spite of that - or because of that.

Were more pilots killed as a result of using flaps, or as a result of failing to use them?

How about pilots that never used their flaps but still ended up as triple aces or more and never got shot down?

The mere use of the flaps indicates either to a desperate situation or someone deliberately putting himself into a dangerous situation that is likely to get him killed.

If a pilot believed that flashing the nav lights makes him turn better he will use it and attributes his success to the nav lights, providing he was lucky to survive a slow turn fight in a fur ball. Human psychology is like that.

[mtnman]

The mere use of the flaps indicates either to a desperate situation or someone deliberately putting himself into a dangerous situation that is likely to get him killed.

Those are two possible reasons for the use of flaps. 

A third reason (in the case of combat flaps) would be using the tool (in this case, the airplane) in the manner it was designed to perform. 

[bozon]

Those are two possible reasons for the use of flaps. 

A third reason (in the case of combat flaps) would be using the tool (in this case, the airplane) in the manner it was designed to perform. 

If this means the ~10 degree setting some planes had then I agree.

[Karnak]

If this means the ~10 degree setting some planes had then I agree.

I believe that for P-38s, Ki-43s, Ki-44s, Ki-84s and J2Ms the initial setting was a combat setting.  I am not sure if the N1K2-J's automatic combat flaps would deploy beyond 10 degree in heavy maneuvering or not.