bf.109-f4 vs f4u

[Big Rat]

From what I understand from that BigRat, is that the F4U will eventually come around on the 109F4 if you end up on the deck near stall speed with flaps fully down, right?  In this specific example, what would the best advice be to a 109 pilot then as an alternative to trying to chase down the F4U in this manner?  If you don't get your shot by the time your airspeed is X, or flaps are down Y, do you go nose up and try and outclimb him at that point instead of continuing to turn and bleed E?

"From what I understand from that BigRat, is that the F4U will eventually come around on the 109F4 if you end up on the deck near stall speed with flaps fully down, right? "

Sorry if I wasn't clear, it's actually the opposite,  The F4U has a tighter turning circle then the 109F, but the 109F has a higher turn rate.  In other words the 109F will eventaully get around on the F4U.  Turn rate has to do with how many degrees an aircraft can get around a circle in a given amount of time.  The F4U makes a smaller circle but it takes it longer to get around it.

One of the great advantages of the F4u is it's ability to get into it's flaps at 250mph and dump flaps quickly enough to get a very high initial turn rate.  This is not a sustained turn rate, it's more like a burst of one, as the Speed is bled so quickly it cannot be sustained.  Good F4u pilots take advantage of this by doing quick flap deploys to get that initial high turn rate to get nose on, and quickly pull the flaps back in to minimize drag and build E back up.  This is to try and force your opponent defensive quickly at which point the F4U can fly lag persuit and maintain as much E as possible.

The 109F's job is to get the F4u tied up enough, that it can't go into conservation mode, and keep bleeding its E until the 109F's superior E building ability allows it to get on top of the fight. 

It's hard to give an X then y scenario in this as every stick you come across will be different.   One of the hardest things in this game to learn is patience, the longer the fight goes the more in favor it goes in the F, as long as the F can keep the Hog tied up enough that it can't build up a good head of steam.

If I fight Widewing for example 1a vs 109F, I know I have to have him on the defensive by the second merge, or I'm in big rouble in my F4u.  After the third merge  he'll be above me, and I'll be defensive.  Even if I can keep up an outstanding defense to the point that we both end up in a flat turn on the deck, the 109F's higher turn rate will still give Widewing the advantage.  So the Key is to get through the first two merges in the verticle, keeping the F4u on par or better, if he hasn't got an advantage by the second merge the fight is now in your favor.  Now you just have to make sure you don't let the F4u get nose down in the fight to build up E.  Use the F4u as your hard deck, and keep fighting in the verticle.

 
BigRat 

[Gman]

Great explanation, many thanks.

[RTR]

wow....great reply from BigRat.

Good stuff.

I flew the Hawg a lot when I was more active and what BigRat says is true.

Best piece of advice I can give when you are fighting against a Corsair is...don't fight fast with it and don't fight slow with it. If it is fast, look for wingmen...if it i slow, stay fast.

Pound for pound probably the best all around fighter in the game.

My favourite killer by far.

RTR

[TequilaChaser]

I have to question that theory TC. You are advising reducing torque vs maintaining full thrust against drag. You would increase roll rate to the right but rate and radius would logically degrade with a reduction in thrust. Cutting throttle is often useful but I don't see it benefiting turning unless you are above corner speed.

I guess any person would have to question it, FLS...  I questioned it myself when Widewing posted about it way back.....  but if one wanted to better their turn rate and radius in both the F4U series and the 109 series when /while turning to the right..... one will find they can actually gain ground by backing off the throttle oh so slightly..... I'm not talking reduce it to 75% or 80%, etc.....  but more like from 100% to 95% or there abouts...... I suggest to do this though, only when you are in a slower speed dog fight.......... for instance 150 mph IAS or slower.....

hope that clears up my earlier post......  btw, the reason to back off is to counter the imassive torque the engine produces, barely bumping the throttle down helps both of these planes turn better to the right....

edit:  FLS, you mentioned in your reply, that you did not see it being a benefit unless one was above cornerspeed........... above cornerspeed it wouldn't help as much as it would if one was slower or under cornerspeed........ the engines of prop driven aircraft produce the most torque and thrust right at Stall Speed....... so the slower you are in a fight, the more pronounced the feel of the engines torque when turning right in the F4U or Bf109 series......

hope this helps

<S>

TC

[FLS]

TC I understand you're talking about the torque, which is mainly from the propwash. My comment about reducing throttle above corner speed was simply to reduce thrust to get to corner speed faster. At that point you'd want full power again.

Your point is that you can turn better with slightly less power at slow speeds. I agree that you can roll against torque better with less torque, and you roll to start the turn, but I don't see how that gives you a better steady state turn. 

You're looking at the torque trying to roll the aircraft while turning and I'm looking at the thrust opposing drag. Reducing thrust slows you down. Turn rate and radius are determined by radial G and speed. Radial G comes from lift and speed from thrust. Lift is limited by speed. If you are reducing thrust then you are reducing speed. Reducing speed reduces lift. Now you have less speed and less radial G. How is the turn better?

Since thrust opposes drag you would have to reduce drag to maintain or increase the turn. So the question can be restated. How does slightly reducing the throttle reduce drag more than it reduces thrust?

Slowing down in a fight can be a good idea but unless you're trying to slow down I don't see a benefit in reducing power.

BTW the main reason torque is a bigger factor at low speeds is the reduction in roll damping, it's not because the torque is greater near the stall speed. The normal roll damping designed into an aircraft goes away at or near the stall.

[nrshida]

Radial G comes from lift and speed from thrust. Lift is limited by speed. If you are reducing thrust then you are reducing speed. Reducing speed reduces lift. Now you have less speed and less radial G. How is the turn better?

Very very very unimaginative & conventional thinking.

[BluBerry]

Very very very unimaginative & conventional thinking.

How so? FLS is describing it correctly.

[LCADolby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDZOezKnf0U&feature=player_detailpage#t=210

F4U vs 109F

[The Fugitive]

I'm looking for F4U films. I use to fly it a lot and have recently started flying it again. I started a thread, http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,357312.0.html but thought I would also add here that if anyone has films they want to donate post them here, or PM me and I'll send an address you can send them to.

Thanks.

[nrshida]

How so? FLS is describing it correctly.

He's describing a method of turning correctly.

[Tank-Ace]

He's describing a method of turning correctly.

.

Very enlightening, thanks serving as such a fount of information .

[FLS]

Very very very unimaginative & conventional thinking.

That's correct. It's basic forces on an aircraft.

[nrshida]

That's correct. It's basic forces on an aircraft.

Yes very basic.

Very enlightening, thanks serving as such a fount of information .

For you this Christmas, cinders.

[FLS]

Yes very basic.

Take it to the next level then. 

[nrshida]

Take it to the next level then. 

I do.