Author Topic: Convergence  (Read 1110 times)

Offline wpeters

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Convergence
« on: January 16, 2014, 01:50:48 PM »
IF my convergence in my D40 are set at D400 is the spread the same at D800 as they were when they left the plane. If not how much do they disperse.
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Offline hitech

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2014, 02:02:21 PM »
Yes if you are not moving. Scratching my head at the moment how things change or not if you are moving.

HiTech

Offline wpeters

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 02:14:25 PM »
Yes if you are not moving. Scratching my head at the moment how things change or not if you are moving.

HiTech

Thanks a lot :salute
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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 02:19:46 PM »
Since you are moving should be a fraction closer at 800m? Now we are getting into Eisenstein's Theory of Relativity. Where is Ghi when we need him. I suppose Snailman will do

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Offline RipRap

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 07:38:10 PM »
One way to find out would be to set the .Target range to 800 and fly dead level and fire at it. Then do it again slightly climbing, diving, turning, a little  rudder kick, etc..
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Offline Randy1

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2014, 09:34:07 PM »
IF my convergence in my D40 are set at D400 is the spread the same at D800 as they were when they left the plane. If not how much do they disperse.

Not sure I understand the question after HiTech's answer.  Here is the answer to what I think you were asking.After the convergence point the bullets continue to spread  as long as they have forward movement.

Use the target at 400 then set the target for 800.  Use the zoom to get a better view.

As a side note, 400 is a bit long for a D40.

Offline JimmyD3

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 10:00:25 AM »
Not sure I understand the question after HiTech's answer.  Here is the answer to what I think you were asking.After the convergence point the bullets continue to spread  as long as they have forward movement.

Use the target at 400 then set the target for 800.  Use the zoom to get a better view.

As a side note, 400 is a bit long for a D40.

I know guys with everything set at 600. :D
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Offline hitech

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 02:27:02 PM »
On the if the plane moving question (my brain finally kicked in gear), they will be at the same distance apart when they reach a point 800 in front of your plane as long as you are maintaining a constant speed. If you are accelerating it would be a bit closer, if slowing a bit farther.

HiTEch

Offline wpeters

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 04:21:32 PM »
On the if the plane moving question (my brain finally kicked in gear), they will be at the same distance apart when they reach a point 800 in front of your plane as long as you are maintaining a constant speed. If you are accelerating it would be a bit closer, if slowing a bit farther.

HiTEch

Thanks a lot.  Now I know how to set them for hitting buffs
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Offline ink

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2014, 04:26:20 PM »
a good saying I have heard in the past not sure who said it....something along the lines..."set your convergence to where you shoot at, not shoot at were your convergence is set at"

I do know for sure..landing hits at your convergence is the best and quickest way to take out the red guy  :rock

Offline bustr

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2014, 07:18:56 PM »
A survey in the ETO during ww2 was taken of the combat film from 701 sorties. Of this 186 aircraft were shot down. Of the 701 pilots, 39% shot down the 186 aircraft. The common theme.

The 39% were shooting inside of their maximum effective combat range. 

Wing guns were not harmonized past 1100ft or 366yds as a general practice. Hood and nose guns, 666yds was considered maximum effective gunnery range along with that being the maximum effective range for the AN\M2. 1200ft or 400yds was considered maximum effective combat range by the time the

1944 AAF Manual "Fighter Gunnery 1st Edition" was distributed by the Army Air Forces Training Command.  This is not a copy writed manual. Wonder why the Trainers don't issue this, or it's view only somewhere on the AH WEB site? I had to buy mine.

The manual was created by the instructors at Army Air Forces Instructors School, Matagorda Peninsula, Foster Field, Texas. They used the 701 survey results as part of their class on range estimation and it's importance.

Since we only get sent to the tower for another ride in our game if we make a mistake. Any convergence is a good convergence if that's the one you spend all of your time shooting with. A 100mph ring or 101-105Mil gunsight ring is best at combat distances of 400 and under with a convergence in the 300's for deflection shooting at the speeds we fly in the MA.

At the default head position in our fighters, the general dimensions of the reflector glass is about right to act as a 100mph ring for natural deflection shooting with only a dot. The red range icons take the place of needing a ring to tell a 30ft wingspan fighter at 2000ft, 1800ft, 1750ft, 1200ft or 750ft. Just don't shoot until it's wingspan or fuselage is mostly in the glass. And deflection shooting, if you don't have a ring, you naturally learn to use multiples of the wingspan or hold deflection lead by placing the edge of the glass on the con. Or years of trial and error with your favorite fighters sight picture. For the alt monkey dive, HO, and run P51D players. Shoot sooner and farther in front of your target as you dive down at him.

100mph Ring in gunsights came from the distance a plane at 1000ft travels 90 degrees to you with the AAF, at 100mph across half of the 100Mil ring diameter as you look through it or, 50Mil. By the time you reach a 300mph late war fighter, the lead for 300mph is an additional 2 50Mil, one for each additional 100mph. That's why combat range in ww2 was 1200ft and under. Longer shots were most of the time strafing where you had pull up concerns and debris strike concerns. Because you were shooting at material and soldiers, the wide dispersion past your standard convergence gave a higher probability of hitting things in the moments you had on target. 50cal API is a very destructive round to things like that. It doesn't take many. Unlike in our game where you have to focus rounds on a ground object for a pre determined amount of time to destroy it.

100mph = 101Mil main ring.
65 mph = 70Mil main ring.

This illustration best shows the relationship of your 100Mil ring to the relative travel angle of the con at around 300mph. This illustration is for a 70Mil ring with a con at 65mph. Where the 30 degree 109 is sitting, is 100Mil ring edge. Speed and time equal Mil to the calculations that created this chart.

     
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Offline McShark

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2014, 11:15:40 PM »
a good saying I have heard in the past not sure who said it....something along the lines..."set your convergence to where you shoot at, not shoot at were your convergence is set at"

I do know for sure..landing hits at your convergence is the best and quickest way to take out the red guy  :rock

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2014, 11:41:32 PM »
I know guys with everything set at 600. :D

<---  Raises hand.

I set everything at 650 except weaker guns (.303's, 7.9mms, Japanese and Russian cannons) at 450 then use point convergence based on my weakest guns.  I do that so I can snipe at long ranges and still hit with enough force at those ranges to do damage.

In 95% of my flights in the MA, my guns are always converging in on my target, long range buff shots and scare shots being the exception.  And in close there's enough ballistic power to do the damage needed even if not at ideal convergence

Anything within 450/650 is a kill if I can hit and up to 1000 with a lucky bb.  450 is my ideal firing range but anything inside 800's comfortable.

The only adjustment you have to make is to keep your nose high or low depending on the distance and where your guns are mounted.

[EDIT]  I am one of a rare few who do this.  YMMV
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 11:44:42 PM by BaldEagl »
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Offline WW1965

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2014, 09:32:05 AM »
<---  Raises hand.

I set everything at 650 except weaker guns (.303's, 7.9mms, Japanese and Russian cannons) at 450 then use point convergence based on my weakest guns.  I do that so I can snipe at long ranges and still hit with enough force at those ranges to do damage.

In 95% of my flights in the MA, my guns are always converging in on my target, long range buff shots and scare shots being the exception.  And in close there's enough ballistic power to do the damage needed even if not at ideal convergence

Anything within 450/650 is a kill if I can hit and up to 1000 with a lucky bb.  450 is my ideal firing range but anything inside 800's comfortable.

The only adjustment you have to make is to keep your nose high or low depending on the distance and where your guns are mounted.

[EDIT]  I am one of a rare few who do this.  YMMV

How long did it take ya to get good at those settings ??

I think I'm ok at flying, shooting is a different story.. I just can't hit them @ all..
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Convergence
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2014, 11:39:00 AM »
How long did it take ya to get good at those settings ??

Define good.  My normal hit% is between 10-12% depending on the mix of fighters (closer to 6-8%) to buffs (14-18% or higher).  I've always used these convergences so I can't really tell you how long it took.

BTW an interesting side note is that I also set the German 30mm spud chucker to 650 and my hit% doesn't suffer at all.
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