Author Topic: New russian subs  (Read 3501 times)

Offline Sol75

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #135 on: January 29, 2014, 04:27:24 PM »
Could be.. as i recall the largest power rise was due to lowering water levels.. They used water as a neutron absorber.. No water meant many extra zoomies flying around to be absorbed by u235... But you're answer sounds much better and most likely more technically correct.. hehe

edit:  i bet you're exactly right.. it was the instantaneous power excursion flashing what water they had to steam resulting in a steam explosion perhaps?

Yea, thats what I've read on the subject... not bad for someone never trained in this stuff huh? lol  :devil
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Offline kappa

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #136 on: January 29, 2014, 04:31:14 PM »
Yea, thats what I've read on the subject... not bad for someone never trained in this stuff huh? lol  :devil

lol  I agree! Reactor physics can really kick a person's ass.. Sometimes you gotta just push the 'I believe' button and step away.. haha seems like you got a pretty good handle on it..
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Offline GScholz

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #137 on: January 29, 2014, 04:55:55 PM »
humor?

No. In the Cold War, which threatened at times to become hot, the plutonium production aspect of the RBMK-reactor imposed a sense of urgency on their design, construction and operation; no time was to be "wasted" on improvements however essential to a safe operation. The scientists and engineers worked under one and only one guideline: to produce weapons-grade plutonium - as much as possible and as quickly as possible. Budgetary problems drove them in the same direction.  Not that there was any question of reducing expenses but simply of using the funds available to produce the maximum amount of the highest quality weapons-grade plutonium-239 as quickly as possible.

It was under these circumstances that the Minister of Electrification declared at a Politburo meeting on May 2, 1986, six days after the explosion: "In spite of the accident, the construction team will meet its socialist obligations and soon begin to build reactor number 5."

The culture of secrecy was universal in the USSR. It imposed compartmentalization of knowledge: no single person was allowed to see the big picture and to integrate all aspects of the safety of the operation. In civilian nuclear energy the Soviet culture of secrecy lasted until 1989. Some Soviet scientists were strictly honest and open.  Others who were as competent, and known  to be so, were motivated more by their personal interests than by scientific objectivity and lacked the courage to be scientifically rigorous. They accepted or even encouraged the political powers-that-be to make certain questionable and even dangerous decisions. The struggle for influence replaced scientific, technical and technological debate.

The design errors of the reactor did not arise from incompetence of the engineers. They were rather the result of the bureaucratic dictatorship which presided over all decisions in the Soviet system, even those dealing with safety. It is clear that the explosion of the Chernobyl reactor was made possible by the many shortcomings of the Soviet system; one may well say that the Chernobyl explosion was more a Soviet event than a nuclear event.
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Offline ACE

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #138 on: January 29, 2014, 05:10:54 PM »
This stuff has caught my attention.  I have found this to be an excellent read.  Kappa if I may ask, do you actually work at a plant? 
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #139 on: January 29, 2014, 08:29:36 PM »
They used water as a neutron absorber..

The Mi-8 that was dropping the neutron absorbers flew into a cable line and crashed which resulted in virtually none of the neutron absorbers reaching the core.

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Offline Sol75

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #140 on: January 29, 2014, 09:18:35 PM »
The Mi-8 that was dropping the neutron absorbers flew into a cable line and crashed which resulted in virtually none of the neutron absorbers reaching the core.

ack-ack

Im pretty sure he meant it is used as an absorberof excess neutrons during operation of the reactor as well as a coolant...  I believe the mi8 was dropping sand (to extinguish the fire) and boron to stop any chain reactions still occurring.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 09:21:48 PM by Sol75 »
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Offline kappa

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #141 on: January 29, 2014, 11:05:37 PM »
This stuff has caught my attention.  I have found this to be an excellent read.  Kappa if I may ask, do you actually work at a plant?  

yea man.. I do.. im an operator.. we start our unit3 refueling outage week after next. 8)

The Mi-8 that was dropping the neutron absorbers flew into a cable line and crashed which resulted in virtually none of the neutron absorbers reaching the core.

ack-ack

hehe

Absorption as in the likelihood of what type nucleus the neutron will be absorbed into and the possibility that absorption will cause a fission event..

just a quick goggle.. might not be the best explanation..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_cross_section

A neutron's relative energy state.. Fast neutrons and slow neutrons also known as thermal neutrons.. Fast neutrons become thermal neutrons after passing through some type of moderator and losing E from collisions..

Something like 99.6% of all fissions result in a prompt neutron.. This is a neutron born in a really really short time after the event..

.4% of neutrons are born as delayed neutrons.. These neutrons are born at a slightly longer time after the fission event and even up to minutes later.. Amazing enough, these delayed neutrons are how the nuclear reaction is controlled and not allowed to go prompt critical(nuclear blast)..

Yea, I have a I believe button for that one.. hehe

Edit.. I don't mean to say a commercial core could explode like a nuclear blast... just attempting to describe the term prompt critical..

« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 11:15:58 PM by kappa »
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Offline ACE

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #142 on: January 29, 2014, 11:07:05 PM »
Do you guys wear something that monitors how much radiation you receive while working? 
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Offline kappa

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #143 on: January 29, 2014, 11:09:06 PM »
yes.. this little thing about the size of a 1990s pager.. measures in mRem..  

but its not crazy or anything.. we are admin limited to 1Rem/yr which maybe 1 worker might even begin to approach on a year we have 2 refuel outages like this year..

Common airline pilots will receive more dose in a year than an average nuclear worker..
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 11:11:42 PM by kappa »
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Offline ACE

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #144 on: January 29, 2014, 11:17:49 PM »
Oh okay I see.
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #145 on: January 30, 2014, 03:19:56 AM »
one may well say that the Chernobyl explosion was more a Soviet event than a nuclear event.


I think it is a very good match to compare a communist dictatorship and a nuclear disaster. Both have about the same kind of results.
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Offline kappa

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #146 on: January 30, 2014, 02:32:02 PM »
No. In the Cold War, which threatened at times to become hot, the plutonium production aspect of the RBMK-reactor imposed a sense of urgency on their design, construction and operation; no time was to be "wasted" on improvements however essential to a safe operation. The scientists and engineers worked under one and only one guideline: to produce weapons-grade plutonium - as much as possible and as quickly as possible. Budgetary problems drove them in the same direction.  Not that there was any question of reducing expenses but simply of using the funds available to produce the maximum amount of the highest quality weapons-grade plutonium-239 as quickly as possible.

It was under these circumstances that the Minister of Electrification declared at a Politburo meeting on May 2, 1986, six days after the explosion: "In spite of the accident, the construction team will meet its socialist obligations and soon begin to build reactor number 5."

The culture of secrecy was universal in the USSR. It imposed compartmentalization of knowledge: no single person was allowed to see the big picture and to integrate all aspects of the safety of the operation. In civilian nuclear energy the Soviet culture of secrecy lasted until 1989. Some Soviet scientists were strictly honest and open.  Others who were as competent, and known  to be so, were motivated more by their personal interests than by scientific objectivity and lacked the courage to be scientifically rigorous. They accepted or even encouraged the political powers-that-be to make certain questionable and even dangerous decisions. The struggle for influence replaced scientific, technical and technological debate.

The design errors of the reactor did not arise from incompetence of the engineers. They were rather the result of the bureaucratic dictatorship which presided over all decisions in the Soviet system, even those dealing with safety. It is clear that the explosion of the Chernobyl reactor was made possible by the many shortcomings of the Soviet system; one may well say that the Chernobyl explosion was more a Soviet event than a nuclear event.


Interesting.. I see what you're saying.. Powers that be wanted the production over safety.. Good points!

We build in Pu-239 in the upper parts of our cores.. Its a process called spectral hardening.. U-238 absorbs a neutron and decays to Pu-239.. This process is mainly for end of cycle so keep power up.. Down side is Pu-239 produces more prompt neutrons.. blah blah.. hehe never mind.. 
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Offline moot

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #147 on: January 30, 2014, 03:09:09 PM »
None of those glow like this baby
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/enginelist.php#nswr

---

Also..  Wouldn't your own vitreous humor (+-99% H2O) glow cherenkov, given bad enough exposure? 
Yep..: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation#Characteristics
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