Author Topic: New russian subs  (Read 3503 times)

Offline Arlo

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2014, 10:20:47 AM »
They say a diesel electric sub sitting still is like a hole in the water. They don't even have reactor noise.

Which is good since they don't have a reactor.  ;)

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2014, 11:49:12 AM »
They say a diesel electric sub sitting still is like a hole in the water. They don't even have reactor noise.

Unfortunately for them they are relatively slow. They DO have to surface or schnorkal, have relatively short ranges and much shorter submerged times then SSNs, the only limiting factor being how much food is stored. Also a modern USN SSN at a dead stop is a black hole as well. It is also able to get to the fighting faster, stay longer, carry more weapons, and never ever have to surface.

There are quite a few navies in the world either spending tons to improve/increase their SSN fleet or even creating one. Brazil, India, and Argentina come to mind as exploring the SSN option.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2014, 11:51:24 AM »
Modern diesel electrics have air independent systems that allow the sub to navigate submerged for days or weeks.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2014, 11:59:28 AM »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2014, 12:15:45 PM »
Modern diesel electrics have air independent systems that allow the sub to navigate submerged for days or weeks.

Time dependent on speed. They are not a very good option for a blue water navy those for most they are a fine option.

There are very few navies that have to travel vast distances with their boats and the ones that do all have SSNs. Yes and SSP can stay submerged for weeks but must limit their speed to only a few knots to do so.

Diesels and SSPs have come a long way however and are a serious threat. Most of all in shallow water and choke points. I think we made a mistake in not developing our own. Most of all in the early '90s when the threat changed.
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Offline Arlo

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Offline Changeup

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2014, 01:26:04 PM »
http://youtu.be/TfjYZUiOkUw

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Offline GScholz

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2014, 01:55:14 PM »
Um... I posted that video three posts ago...
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Changeup

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2014, 05:27:09 PM »
Um... I posted that video three posts ago...

I was making sure they saw it, lol
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline kappa

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2014, 07:46:00 AM »
Wait...ex Submariners spoke to you??   Those bubbleheads will be kilt.

Don't tell Del...

most were bubbleheads as they call themselves.. others were targets as again the bubbleheads refer to them.. almost all were navy nukes.. always interesting talking to them comparing our systems with the navy's..

They say a diesel electric sub sitting still is like a hole in the water. They don't even have reactor noise.

as stated those boats don't have a core.. Rx cores don't make 'noise' anyway..  8) But I'm told they are still extremely quiet.. Obviously they are or at least smart enough to be in the right place/time if the 'sea stories' are true..

most folk I work with don't really have anything to prove.. can't see why they would tell a 'sea story' to discredit what they served even if they're happy to be retired or no longer enlisted..

Conn, sonar.  Ankle Humper One identified as an Arlo Burke class thread destroyer. 



Contact appears to be moving in circles, sir. 

I got no fuel in this core.. but that there is pretty damn funny.. hehe
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2014, 09:30:22 AM »
as stated those boats don't have a core..

Well duh. And reactors do make noise because they need constant cooling flow once they're critical. A diesel electric running on battery doesn't have necessarily any heavy duty moving parts.
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Offline kappa

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2014, 10:27:34 AM »
Well duh. And reactors do make noise because they need constant cooling flow once they're critical. A diesel electric running on battery doesn't have necessarily any heavy duty moving parts.

you're right.. the support systems make noise.. but the core is solid and does not.. 8)
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Offline GScholz

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2014, 10:35:47 AM »
But it does make beautiful light. :)
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Offline Delirium

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2014, 09:22:49 PM »
Conn, sonar.  Ankle Humper One identified as an Arlo Burke class thread destroyer. 

THAT was funny!   :lol
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Offline Gman

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Re: New russian subs
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2014, 12:27:14 AM »
Quote
And reactors do make noise because they need constant cooling flow once they're critical

This is true, but a very oversimplified answer.  The USN reactors in various SSN's do need constant cooling, but what you aren't saying is that at low power output levels, the pumps which MAKE the noise from the "constant cooling flow" you're talking about aren't needed to be run.  The design of the cooling fluid loop and other classified stuff is such that, as I said, there is no additional noise generated as there is nothing running that would do so.  Once power is increased to add revolutions to the screw, which is how you get more power/speed, only then are pumps needed to increase the flow/cooling rate.  This is called "natural circulation technology".  This and many other things engineered into the design of the reactors on the 688, Seawolf, Virginia, Ohio's, and all their predecessors are specifically made to make things quieter by eliminating additional sound sources like reactor cooling pumps at slower speeds.  When the coolant is circulating on its own, the only noise would be the movement of fluid through the piping and vessel itself, which makes little if any detectable signatures outside of the hull.

So, while reactors do need constant cooling, it isn't just from cooling pumps that this is accomplished depending on power/speed of the submarine.

Also, regarding AIP powered submarines, the idea that they can only creep at "a few knots" in order to stay submerged is ridiculous.  The German, Swedish, and other boats currently in service can run at 25 knts or higher at max power, and do long range cruises at 15 knts and still have weeks of patrolling left in them with regards to fuel/fuel cell/etc for the AIP propulsion systems.  The reason D/E subs could and would only run at very slow creep speeds was that their batteries charge would be very quickly depleted during high power/speed runs and settings, requiring them to snorkel and run the diesel motors to recharge, which creates a huge sound signature- well the AIP are NOT batteries which need to be recharged due to quickly discharging their power levels during high speed maneuvers.  That's the revolutionary part of AIP, it isn't just that snorkeling is virtually eliminated, although the AIP subs still do it to recharge their batteries, it's that the need to snorkel is reduced by an order of magnitude, as the AIP system can power the boat completely independently of the old diesel/electric circuit.  D/E subs until the advent of AIP systems were pretty much a manned, moveable minefield.  That just isn't the case any more, and while they don't have the speed or range of the fleet SSN's, they aren't tied to a coastline or supply vessel nearly as much as they formerly were.  The Israeli Dolphins, German 212/etc, Swedish and Aussie boats, and others, have all come across both the Pacific and Atlantic oceans to the USA home waters to train, and most of them effected their crossings at 10-15 knts sustained.  

Newer US subs like the Seawolf and Virginia have new classified sonar systems specifically designed to detect AIP subs, and the specific frequency and such that these propulsion systems operate around.  That's how effective the AIP systems have been, they spawned a completely new type of detection system.  How good it works in doing so isn't being told to the public much.  

One thing I've read about in a lot of the defense sites and journals is that the US Navy since the decline of the USSR's sub fleet has spent less time and money on the training of the surface combatant fleets in ASW work.  That is completely understandable, when a threat diminishes, and other threats pop up, you change to meet that threat, right?  IMO this is an important factor in the success of small AIP and D/E subs in exercises vs US Navy frigs and destroyers.  The Aussies, Swedes, Germans, and even Canadian navies with their small subs have had a lot of publicized success recently, but I'm not convinced that it is merely a technological leap, and I feel that it is also a training and focus issue as well.

I will agree that while the AIP subs are ground breaking, they are certainly NOT as capable as a fleet SSN in terms of the ranges they can be deployed at, and their sustainability.  All subs are governed by the food and supplies they can store, it used to be that the D/E subs were limited by fuel and range/speed due to the nature of their systems, but the AIP systems have pushed that to at least 60 days of combat ops in terms of power levels/speed settings, so they are catching up to the SSN's, but they'll never catch or overtake them IMO.  Current US SSN's are at least 10 knts faster at max power settings, and that's likely on the low side, and can keep that up indefinitely, where as an AIP/DE sub can only get short bursts by comparison.

D/E non AIP subs are still dangerous as well.  Even though they don't have the range/speed options that the AIP subs do, they can still be effective.  The HMS Illustrious is the "varsity" in the Nato/USN fleets for ASW work - this ship and crew has "the" reputation for hunting subs in exercises.  Well, a newcomer to the block, an x-brit D/E sub from the Canadian Navy did this to them in a EX just a couple of years ago.  This proves the point IMO that even really good, well trained and experienced surface crews are usually at a disadvantage to even a D/E sub in a fight.



At this range it's only a 2 minute run for a Mk48 ADCAP torpedo - just not enough time to evade it from a head on quartering shot like this, and in a real war, that ASW ship would have taken hits for a virtual certainty.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 12:47:28 AM by Gman »