comparing

[Sunka]

 I also think it's exceptional that HT takes the time to personally come here and staunchly defend them.  It shows that he both pays attention to what we lowly customers are saying and also that he takes great pride in his product.  These are good things.

I just think he was offended,and defended something HE made and nothing more. And us "lowly" customers keep his money flowing.
 

[Kingpin]

I just think he was offended,and defended something HE made and nothing more. And us "lowly" customers keep his money flowing.
 

Don't get me wrong, I think it's OK for you to state an opinion and ask if there is bias in FM design for game purposes, especially based on information you've seen.  I just think it's cool that the game designer would come in and address those concerns personally.

It sounded to me more like he was offended at the suggestion of bias in the FMs or fudging of numbers for the purpose of game balance.  It is probably a pet peeve that he's had to hear over and over for... how many years now?  While the tone may have been defensive, I think he simply wanted to nip that in the bud, which he clearly did.

Anywho, I think discussions like this, heated or otherwise, are good every now and again as they keep the integrity of the game in the open for those who haven't been in on such discussion before.

My positive take on the whole thing.

<S>
Ryno

[BnZs]

deleted

[craz07]

Well i'm not typically a brown noser but in any case.. I'll tell you why I keep the money flowing.. becuase AH is the best WW2 sim in the world for freaks like you and me...   Years ago a man could only dream about such a game that we play almost every day, after work, school, chores what have you.. Its accurately modeled.. Its fun.. and its cheap.. Are there little tweaks that we bring up everyday.. absolutely.. it never ends.. But no need to be rude or condescending about it.. state the facts and lets play!!  One thing I noticed about the fm that was a welcome surprise was the way flaps affect flight.. Coming over from warbirds in all respect i thought the flap flight modeling was a little wacky.. AH seems to be more accurately modeled as in it feels like the a320 you took your last vacation on when you start to get almost a float feeling when those flaps come down.. Any ways not looking to knock you Sunka really not, just there are better ways!

[Nath[BDP]]

Is this the same show people use to justify the "cobra", "tail slide", "tail whip?"  maneuver?  still haven't gotten an answer from HTC on that one.   

[BnZs]

Hitech: I think this is what causes a lot of players' concerns with the P-51's performance, especially the no-flap comparison.


Now people who are expecting the P-51 to out-turn Zeros, or to implicitly out-turn 109s because of pilot reports, these people are not showing intellectual rigor, I grant you. But when comparing these two aircraft, the D-11 has the heavier wing-loading and the lesser power-loading (at low altitudes), correct? Also, I have generally seen the clean stall speed of the P-51 listed at 100mph, while I distinctly remember Johnson writing in "Thunderbolt" that his jug stalled at 105. Correct me if I am wrong on any of these figures, but you can see why they make people wonder.

[craz07]

I am no physicist or claim to be, however, I am indeed an avid Wikipedia reader... did the jug not have a several hundred more horsepower, would that not account for a tighter turn radius? P.S. I'm surprised by that finding also.. how do you test that?

[Ack-Ack]

Is this the same show people use to justify the "cobra", "tail slide", "tail whip?"  maneuver?  still haven't gotten an answer from HTC on that one.   

Yep.

ack-ack

[BnZs]

I am no physicist or claim to be, however, I am indeed an avid Wikipedia reader... did the jug not have a several hundred more horsepower, would that not account for a tighter turn radius? P.S. I'm surprised by that finding also.. how do you test that?

And quite a bit more weight to go along with the extra power.

Also, IIRC our P-47D-11 has toothpick prop, which I believe would negatively impact thrust from the prop at low speeds, in exchange for a slightly higher top-end speed.

Here is the climb rate comparison for the two craft:

[ReVo]

I think this debate is mostly a product of people being disappointed that their hero plane isn't actually the all-powerful death machine that the History Channel would have them believe it was.

[Sunka]

I think this debate is mostly a product of people being disappointed that their hero plane isn't actually the all-powerful death machine that the History Channel would have them believe it was.

I knew nothing of WWII planes before i came to this game. And had nothing to pre judge this on. Only what i seen in shows for the most part,and never claimed anything else.

But im moving on from this thread    .

[LCADolby]

Wing that are streamlined and produce no lift... Who knew eh!?

[BnZs]

I think this debate is mostly a product of people being disappointed that their hero plane isn't actually the all-powerful death machine that the History Channel would have them believe it was.

Is it? What about the comparison between the P-51 and the Jug and the attendant numbers? Reports of Mustang pilots out-turning 109s in combat can be taken with a grain a salt, as so many factors go into combat turning. However, when comparing the Jug and the P-51, you are talking about two American airplanes that the Allies had plenty of examples of and tested extensively. And it was widely agreed that the P-51 was better in the turn. Pilots generally felt that the P-47 could not turn with the German fighters, while the P-51 could.  At least one German pilot agreed with them:

Walter Wolfrum, a Luftwaffe ace with 137 victories, remembered of his encounters with American fighters that "the P-47 wasn't so bad because we could out turn and outclimb it, initially. The P-51 was something else.
http://www.mustang.gaetanmarie.com/articles/germany/germany.htm

[BnZs]

Wing that are streamlined and produce no lift... Who knew eh!?

The important factor is lift produced in relation to weight. When one airplane stalls clean at 100 mph, and another stalls clean at 105 mph, the former is producing more lift in relation to its weight.

[BnZs]

I was just what I presume to be Mosq's latest turn data, and I came across the startling fact that according to his figures, the P-47M turns a tighter radius with the same turn rate with no flaps as the P-51D does with one notch of flaps!
70 P47 M 6x 267 25%    753.9 18.9
73 P51 D  6x 25% 1 flap 759.6 18.9

This seems very odd. Is this possibly a typo, and the above refers to the 47M tested with a notch of flaps?

Here are the weights for the two planes at the specified load outs, per the E6B in the hangar:
P-47M 12688 pounds
Wing area 300 square feet
Wing loading=42.29 pounds/square foot.


P-51D 8968 pounds
Wing area 235 square feet
Wing loading=38.16 pounds/square foot