Author Topic: P51 Question/Controversy  (Read 2618 times)

Offline Muzzy

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P51 Question/Controversy
« on: February 04, 2014, 12:37:18 AM »
There has been some discussion about the P 51 and it's turning abilities in another thread, but rather than hijack that one, I will put the question plainly: how do you get the optimal turn out of a Pony? I don't mean what's the corner speed or the turn radius. I mean how do those select pilots manage to make the average Spit driver cry "cheat!" over 200. Do you go nose high, kick the rudder, do the hokey-pokey, or what? I understand that knowing the basic physics is important, but from a plain stick and rudder viewpoint, how is it done?

PS I know this is situational, but maybe you could describe a situation where it can be done.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 12:45:47 AM by Muzzy »


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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 01:06:55 AM »
One key is going to be to use the vertical and "play the egg" so to speak.  Beyond simply dropping flaps at the top of a loop or oblique turn it's sometimess advantageous to actually drop throttle on the way up depending an speed, E state and where your opponent is.  In other words use the climb to drop speed and tighten your turn radius while using flaps to retain lift and bring you around.

Most MA opponents are going to keep the throttle firewalled, particularily on the way up.  Use that to your advantage.
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Offline bozon

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 01:07:44 AM »
The guys that do this do not pull any magic moves and nothing specific to the P-51. They will make other players cry no matter what they fly. The secret is quite an obvious one - they know what ACM to pull and when, and execute it correctly. That is it. The plane you sit in change the list of options at your disposal in any given situation, but there are no special moves.

It is not about stick and rudder, as much as it is about understanding the geometry of the fight in 3D, the ability to extrapolate the flight paths in your mind and knowing (roughly) the limitations of each plane. The only way to learn this is from experience. Get a little flight time in all planes to be familiar with they handling. Film your sorties (there's an auto-film feature) and if someone pull a WTF move on you, watch it in the film viewer with trails turned on. You'll find that they did not pull anything fancy except that they were slower than you thought / used God's G to turn / started to turn before you / were not on the same circle as you... etc.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 09:40:05 AM »
Use *one* and only *one* notch of flaps to aid in turning. That rule holds 90% of the time. If you need to hit the brakes, need that last bit to pull over the top in a loop, you can toss out more. The Pony's flaps aren't as advantageous as that of many other planes. 

The Pony's instantaneous turn rate with flaps at corner is good enough that if you find yourself behind something, you should be able to generate enough lead for at least one shot. Whether that helps you or not is up to your gunnery.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 09:42:20 AM by BnZs »
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Offline katanaso

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 09:46:27 AM »
Use *one* and only *one* notch of flaps to aid in turning. That rule holds 90% of the time. If you need to hit the brakes, need that last bit to pull over the top in a loop, you can toss out more. The Pony's flaps aren't as advantageous as that of many other planes. 

The Pony's instantaneous turn rate with flaps at corner is good enough that if you find yourself behind something, you should be able to generate enough lead for at least one shot. Whether that helps you or not is up to your gunnery.

That would be one of the most limiting things to do when turnfighting in a 51.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 10:00:16 AM »
That would be one of the most limiting things to do when turnfighting in a 51.

Look up Widewing's tests, which mesh with my own experiences flying the Pony. More than one notch of flap significantly reduces your rate of turn (ROT is what wins the typical nose-to-tail chase) while not improving your radius near as much as it does for other planes in the game. Full flaps have their place when getting really slow, but I find when most people are talking about turning with other planes they are thinking of the nose to tail chase.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 10:08:58 AM by BnZs »
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Offline katanaso

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 10:33:56 AM »
Look up Widewing's tests, which mesh with my own experiences flying the Pony. More than one notch of flap significantly reduces your rate of turn (ROT is what wins the typical nose-to-tail chase) while not improving your radius near as much as it does for other planes in the game. Full flaps have their place when getting really slow, but I find when most people are talking about turning with other planes they are thinking of the nose to tail chase.



If you're using charts, and comparing a nose-to-tail flat turn, then yes.  If you're employing various ACMs other than flat turns, working the flaps is key in a 51.  It's also not limited to None, 1 Notch, or Full Flaps.  If you work the flaps like it was a 38, and the 51 can maneuver nicely at many speeds in this game.

Limiting the fight to 1 notch of flaps will limit what you can do in a 51.
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2014, 10:49:07 AM »
Look up Widewing's tests, which mesh with my own experiences flying the Pony. More than one notch of flap significantly reduces your rate of turn (ROT is what wins the typical nose-to-tail chase) while not improving your radius near as much as it does for other planes in the game. Full flaps have their place when getting really slow, but I find when most people are talking about turning with other planes they are thinking of the nose to tail chase.

That depends on what style of flight you have. The problem with the pony is that it bleeds its E very quickly whenever it goes nose-high (it regains some of it on the downward portion of a loop, but that's due to the aerodynamics of the aircraft, not raw power output - it comes down easy, but has a harder time going up). If you want to retain your E and keep your options open, then yes, only use one notch of flaps.

That being said, again, the pony excels at bleeding its speed when nose high, so varying flap levels come in handy when forcing overshoots. The pilots flying this style are taking advantage of snapshots, not traditional turn-and-burn (TnB/angles) tactics. As such, most of these kills are going to be from split-second hits from perfect convergences. I suspect the OP's experiences with 200 has to do with pony pilots who force overshoots and get split-second, devastating snapshots. This is going to revolve around timing, snapshots, and having your convergence optimized for your playstyle.
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Offline JOACH1M

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2014, 11:39:59 AM »
When I fly a pony I realized that American planes can dump a lot of emergent very fast.


Use that for an advantage and create an overshoot or a way to slow down inside of turn.  Allowing you to get a shot, either killing or making them make a mistake of trying to dive down or away where you will catch them.
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Offline BnZs

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 01:24:48 PM »
Indeed, or the simple fact that most Pony guns passes are made at 400mph+, which gets people in the habit of evading with lazy breaks. Then when a Pony who manages their speed a little better makes a pass, they get nailed and wonder why.

That depends on what style of flight you have. The problem with the pony is that it bleeds its E very quickly whenever it goes nose-high (it regains some of it on the downward portion of a loop, but that's due to the aerodynamics of the aircraft, not raw power output - it comes down easy, but has a harder time going up). If you want to retain your E and keep your options open, then yes, only use one notch of flaps.

That being said, again, the pony excels at bleeding its speed when nose high, so varying flap levels come in handy when forcing overshoots. The pilots flying this style are taking advantage of snapshots, not traditional turn-and-burn (TnB/angles) tactics. As such, most of these kills are going to be from split-second hits from perfect convergences. I suspect the OP's experiences with 200 has to do with pony pilots who force overshoots and get split-second, devastating snapshots. This is going to revolve around timing, snapshots, and having your convergence optimized for your playstyle.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline katanaso

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2014, 01:33:07 PM »
To address Muzzy's question, I'll find some time to post films of a 51 turnfighting various 'better' turning planes.
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Offline bozon

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2014, 02:16:41 AM »
That depends on what style of flight you have. The problem with the pony is that it bleeds its E very quickly whenever it goes nose-high (it regains some of it on the downward portion of a loop, but that's due to the aerodynamics of the aircraft, not raw power output - it comes down easy, but has a harder time going up). If you want to retain your E and keep your options open, then yes, only use one notch of flaps.
That is an incorrect description of what happens to your energy. Speed is not your energy! it is only part of it (and technically your kinetic energy goes like the speed squared, but lets leave that aside) and your only energy bleed is through drag. When going up you almost always end up gaining energy - you bank kinetic energy in the form of potential energy (altitude) and slow down. Slower means LESS drag which is your energy bleed. Slower also mean better prop efficiency (up to a point) and the net result is that you are gaining energy through most of the way up.

One notch of flaps will do nothing for you above 250 mph, except save you the trouble to lower it when you hit 250. You are G limited anyway and the drag it adds is quite little when it comes to reducing your turn radius. People significantly over estimate the effect of flaps in general and especially at speeds well above stall speeds. What high speed flaps increase is mostly the player's confidence.
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 10:49:17 AM »
That is an incorrect description of what happens to your energy. Speed is not your energy! it is only part of it (and technically your kinetic energy goes like the speed squared, but lets leave that aside) and your only energy bleed is through drag. When going up you almost always end up gaining energy - you bank kinetic energy in the form of potential energy (altitude) and slow down. Slower means LESS drag which is your energy bleed. Slower also mean better prop efficiency (up to a point) and the net result is that you are gaining energy through most of the way up.


It's not. In fact, let me explain. Energy state, as you mentioned, is a combination of both potential energy (altitude) and kinetic energy (airspeed). Reducing EITHER without a 100% conversion into the other bleeds energy. As such, climbs (an increase in the angle-of-attack [AoA]) will always bleed energy. The amount varies based on the aircraft design and performance characteristics.

Any time that you increase your AoA, you increase induced drag. This is inversely related to your airspeed and increases exponentially below corner speed. Parasite drag is also a factor, but it typically becomes less of a factor than induced drag during maneuvers (turns) as G-loading functionally reduces airspeed. ANY time you nose-up, you bleed your energy. Period. In fact, if you only need to do a casual reversal, its much more energy efficient to do a standard-rate turn horizontally. Test it yourself - you'll retain more energy than nosing-up.

What I think you mean to say is that you expend less energy by going nose-high than you would in a high-rate horizontal turn - that is true. You're conserving more energy than you would have turning horizontally (to a degree). However, overall, you are actually expending energy (which is permanently lost) as your new AoA is creating drag. With a plane like the Mustang, which generates little lift and has a low thrust-to-weight ratio, you will actually lose much more energy than is recoverable by other late-war aircraft every time you exceed critical AoA. This is because the Mustang requires a greater AoA to maintain the same climb rate as planes that generate more lift or have higher thrust-to-weight ratios.

Pilots often confuse conservation of energy as gaining energy, but they are not the same. You can conserve energy while still losing it. The only time energy is gained is when thrust from the engine can be converted to altitude or airspeed in a balanced flight configuration (i.e. straight-and-level acceleration or a climb).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 11:42:46 AM by Skyyr »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 01:48:03 PM »
The mistake here is assuming that because an airplane is at a high pitch angle relative to the Earth, it is at a high AoA. In point of fact, an aircraft zooming *straight* vertically is in an unloaded state-the wings must be producing zero lift, otherwise it would be looping. Assuming the aircraft has sufficient airspeed for vertical maneuvering, an Immelman will always be more energy efficient way to reverse than a flat turn, whether fast or slow.


It's not. In fact, let me explain. Energy state, as you mentioned, is a combination of both potential energy (altitude) and kinetic energy (airspeed). Reducing EITHER without a 100% conversion into the other bleeds energy. As such, climbs (an increase in the angle-of-attack [AoA]) will always bleed energy. The amount varies based on the aircraft design and performance characteristics.

Any time that you increase your AoA, you increase induced drag. This is inversely related to your airspeed and increases exponentially below corner speed. Parasite drag is also a factor, but it typically becomes less of a factor than induced drag during maneuvers (turns) as G-loading functionally reduces airspeed. ANY time you nose-up, you bleed your energy. Period. In fact, if you only need to do a casual reversal, its much more energy efficient to do a standard-rate turn horizontally. Test it yourself - you'll retain more energy than nosing-up.

What I think you mean to say is that you expend less energy by going nose-high than you would in a high-rate horizontal turn - that is true. You're conserving more energy than you would have turning horizontally (to a degree). However, overall, you are actually expending energy (which is permanently lost) as your new AoA is creating drag. With a plane like the Mustang, which generates little lift and has a low thrust-to-weight ratio, you will actually lose much more energy than is recoverable by other late-war aircraft every time you exceed critical AoA. This is because the Mustang requires a greater AoA to maintain the same climb rate as planes that generate more lift or have higher thrust-to-weight ratios.

Pilots often confuse conservation of energy as gaining energy, but they are not the same. You can conserve energy while still losing it. The only time energy is gained is when thrust from the engine can be converted to altitude or airspeed in a balanced flight configuration (i.e. straight-and-level acceleration or a climb).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 01:53:19 PM by BnZs »
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: P51 Question/Controversy
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2014, 02:31:26 PM »
The mistake here is assuming that because an airplane is at a high pitch angle relative to the Earth, it is at a high AoA. In point of fact, an aircraft zooming *straight* vertically is in an unloaded state-the wings must be producing zero lift, otherwise it would be looping. Assuming the aircraft has sufficient airspeed for vertical maneuvering, an Immelman will always be more energy efficient way to reverse than a flat turn, whether fast or slow.

Not entirely. I get what you're saying, but think that, to achieve vertical, an aircraft must pull through the horizon up to vertical.

Q: How does it achieve this?
A: By changing the AoA.

The angle of attack must be increased to move the center of lift (CL), which increases the lift vector. This is the only way an aircraft can achieve a nose-high configuration. Even though the relative wind is mostly head-on, there is some relative wind that comes from a non-head-on angle as the pilot pulls back on the stick, due to the change in aircraft attitude. The wind can't "adjust" fast enough to the wing as it pulls through it as the aircraft is pulling upward. This is a change in AoA (remember that AoA is the angle between the relative wind and the wing, regardless of control input configuration). The lift produced by this change in AoA produces drag, specifically induced drag.

Now, let's examine the Immelman vs. flat turn. There's a common misconception that flat turns bleed a ton of energy. In reality, flat turns don't inherently bleed any more energy than Immelmans. What bleeds energy is the G-load combined with the lift vector.

When an aircraft is an a very slight turn, such as a standard-rate or one-half standard-rate turn, the longitudinal axis is pointed just slightly off from vertical. Functionally, this means that the lift produced by the wings is almost straight vertical (measured against the longitudinal axis), but not quite. This produces just enough lift vector in the horizontal that the aircraft will turn horizontally with very, very little loss in forward airspeed, very little G-loading (1.1G's or less if executed properly). In essence, there is virtually no loss of energy state of the aircraft, save for the induced drag and miniscule G-load from the 1.1 load factor.

Now, enter the Immelman. The Immelman is a half-loop, followed by an aileron roll at the top of the loop. How does it conserve energy, exactly? The Immelman works by keeping the lift vector directly opposing gravity on the first half of the maneuver, and then uses the 1G pull of the Earth ("God's G") to assist in the second portion of the half-loop. This is very energy efficient as there's no change in lift vector in relation to gravity, as there is with a standard-rate turn.

So Immelman's always conserve energy over flat-turns, right? The correct answer: no, not always.

What many pilots take forgranted is that, in air combat, we aren't interested in minimizing loads on the aircraft or flying in the most efficient way; instead, we're interested in shooting that other mother f'er down as quickly and efficiently as possible. This means that standard and half-rate turns, as described above, are all but worthless in a combat environment. If we need to turn horizontally, we need to typically bank and yank on the stick, and we need to do it hard. This introduces violent changes to the lift vector and wing loading, which drains a ton of energy.

The Immelman is subjected to the same limitations. We can't do gentle Immelmans - we do them quick to get around on the enemy. Guess what? The faster you perform an Immelman, the harder you pull back on that stick, the more energy you're going to drain. It's simple physics. However, because of the vertical lift vector and God's G, it's a lot more efficient than turning horizontally. This is where the assumption that performing an Immelman saves energy comes from, when it reality it doesn't; it simply burns less energy.

So, back to the flat turn vs the Immelman in a non-combat environment. We know that we can perform a flat turn very gently and burn very, very little energy, so what about an Immelman? The problem here is that in almost every propeller-driven aircraft, you're limited by thrust. All WWII aircraft had thrust-to-weight ratios of less than 1.0, which means that the second you pull past the critical AoA, you're counting down to the time you stall. Unfortunately, we can't perform an Immelman with a G-load of less than 1.1 - for that matter, we can barely perform them with a G-load of 2.0 in many aircraft. We have to perform them quickly to ensure we roll out wings level at the top without dropping below corner speed (remember that below corner speed, we're increasing our induced drag as it requires a higher AoA to maintain straight and level). If we buffet at all, or if we come out below corner speed, we're introducing additional drag and losing energy efficiency compared to a flat turn. This means we need to pull several G's (and therefore have a higher AoA) to maximize our efficiency, which bleeds more energy than our half-rate turn at 1.1G's.

It's counter-intuitive to most air combat enthusiasts, but Immelman's and vertical maneuvering burn energy - all maneuevering burns energy - using the vertical just burns less energy.

Remember that energy fighting is not about absolute energy levels, but rather the relative energy levels of the pilot against his opponent.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 02:33:56 PM by Skyyr »
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