American Apaches getting big upgrades

[DaveBB]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3232708295001/war-games-big-upgrade-for-apache-attack-helicopters/#sp=show-clips

Or so these reporters think.

Unless you compare them to British Apaches.  I clicked on this FOX news video, and they are excited about U.S. Apaches getting color displays.  The British Apache has 40% more thrust (20% per engine).  According to one British pilot who's name I don't recall, American Apaches had to remove their shaft mounted longbow radar system in Afghanistan.  Now the fire control system on the Apache is really interesting.  It can identify radar signatures of ground objects and tell you whether it is a tank, APC, jeep, or a person.  He wouldn't tell in the book, but this same pilot (a Brit) said the fire control radar identified camels as something very interesting.

[Arlo]

[TOMCAT21]

Otherwise known as the Block III Apache is the version the US Army is going to.

[Rich46yo]

Still endangered by low tech defenses in urban, or near urban, area's. Most of all during the day.

Im thinking maybe drones nowdays will give a clearer picture of what they will be actually flying into first. The Iraqis figured out how to draw them in and ambush them.

[DaveBB]

U.S. Apaches did very well in Iraq.  I think I know the mission you are referring to, the long range strike mission where a bunch of Apaches were severely damaged, but not a single one was lost.  The Apaches started using long stand off ranges at night, and targeting enemy combatants (which is there is a tremendous amount of video of).  American Apaches have also done well in Afghanistan, though hampered by the high altitudes and loss of fire control radar on some (but not all) aircraft.

[Rich46yo]

U.S. Apaches did very well in Iraq.  I think I know the mission you are referring to, the long range strike mission where a bunch of Apaches were severely damaged, but not a single one was lost.  The Apaches started using long stand off ranges at night, and targeting enemy combatants (which is there is a tremendous amount of video of).  American Apaches have also done well in Afghanistan, though hampered by the high altitudes and loss of fire control radar on some (but not all) aircraft.

Indeed lessons were learned and weaknesses accepted. I believe the battle was the Battle of Karbala where we ran into problems coordination air support for the Apaches, "personally i think the attitude at the time was the Apache was considered an all weather, any time of day, all powerful system that didnt need any support". We over estimated its capabilities. Thinking it a flying Tank with long range weapons that the enemy could reach.

So we sent a bunch in alone during the day looking for armor that wasnt there in an urban area. The Iraqis pulled a Mogadishu with their cell phones and were waiting with small arms, RPGs, and quads and Zues's. Korean war stuff. I think we lost two birds and about 30 Apaches got shot to pieces.

Lesson learned. We can anticipate any smart enemy in the future to try and draw us into low tech war fare. IT, and our pride, are our weaknesses.

[GScholz]

The Apache was designed around the concept of not needing armor, just over-engineer all the important parts so they can absorb more damage and still work. It is fine in a high threat environment like WWIII where you would engage an enemy advancing in the open at long range and hopefully avoid counter-detection or dodge whatever they threw back at you. It is not well suited however for a low intensity conflict where the enemy hides among the civilian population and can easily ambush you. For that you need something that is impervious to small arms fire and armored to withstand cannon fire as well. Something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnOTkGAgRos

The whole fuselage (including the passenger/cargo compartment) is armored to protect from .50 cal class weapons. Same for the titanium rotor blades. The engines, fuel tanks, gearbox and transfer shaft are armored to withstand hits from 23 mm AAA. The cockpit is an A-10 style "titanium bathtub" and is designed to protect the crew from 37 mm AAA, with the canopy made from .50 cal resistant glass.

It works very well in Africa in COIN duties. As long as the insurgents don't have advanced weapons like Stingers or SA-7/14s it can operate almost with impunity.

[Rich46yo]

The Apache was designed around the concept of not needing armor, just over-engineer all the important parts so they can absorb more damage and still work. It is fine in a high threat environment like WWIII where you would engage an enemy advancing in the open at long range and hopefully avoid counter-detection or dodge whatever they threw back at you. It is not well suited however for a low intensity conflict where the enemy hides among the civilian population and can easily ambush you. For that you need something that is impervious to small arms fire and armored to withstand cannon fire as well. Something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnOTkGAgRos

The whole fuselage (including the passenger/cargo compartment) is armored to protect from .50 cal class weapons. Same for the titanium rotor blades. The engines, fuel tanks, gearbox and transfer shaft are armored to withstand hits from 23 mm AAA. The cockpit is an A-10 style "titanium bathtub" and is designed to protect the crew from 37 mm AAA, with the canopy made from .50 cal resistant glass.

It works very well in Africa in COIN duties. As long as the insurgents don't have advanced weapons like Stingers or SA-7/14s it can operate almost with impunity.

That was the idea. The truth is it IS threatened by standard AA and even small arms weapons. The question of survival is one thing, the one of being able to fight and operate successfully in such an environment is another. It was designed to be a tank killer in a Cold War scenario of the Reds charging thru the Fulda, most of all at night. It was not designed to fight an asymmetric enemy using low tech tactics. That entire Apache unit from Karbala was down for over a month repairing their choppers. In future wars that will be decided in hours and days that unacceptable.

Its a fine system and useful but I doubt it will ever have to fight the kind of war it was intended to ever again. In Gulf 1 it shined but who would ever be stupid enough to park a bunch of tanks in the open desert against America and our allies again. Certainly not without a lot of air support, which they wont have anyway.

And 61 m is an awful lot to spend just to chase 1/2 dozen rags thru the mountains to chew them up with a tank killer cannon. I suspect the age of drones is upon us, tho I know the Army has plans for a next Gen attack Chopper I dont think they will have an easy time getting a blank check for it.

'Course were I the enemy in a conventional fight, with our fixed wing present to suppress enemy AA, I would hate to be sitting in a tank with a bunch of Apache's heading my way.

[DaveBB]

The next-generation Army attack helicopter, The Commanche, was cancelled many years ago.

One of the main tasks of Apaches is to escort CH-47s loaded full of troops.  The enemy combatants in Afghanistan (who knows what group they are truly affiliated with anymore?) know that downing a CH-47 will result in the loss of many lives.  The Apaches have very little trouble finding enemy combatants lying in ambush because of their infrared sensors.  Passive sensors detect and deploy countermeasures against MANPADS.  So with sensors to detect the enemy, a very large cannon to engage the enemy from stand off distances, hellfire missiles to target technicals and AA guns (all found in Afghanistan), what is it really lacking as far as a low-intensity conflict attack helicopter?

A couple of difficulties that every Apache pilot has talked about is getting use to the eye monocle, and landing in sandy environments.  The Apache has a very narrow landing gear, and the helicopter can very easily fall over (and has) in 0-visibility conditions caused by the rotor downwash.

[GScholz]

....what is it really lacking as far as a low-intensity conflict attack helicopter?

Armor.

[Rich46yo]

what is it really lacking as far as a low-intensity conflict attack helicopter?

None assuming the enemy fights us in open territory with a small chance of collateral damage.

But why would they be so dumb to do so? And you cant really bypass towns and cities leaving large columns of enemy untouched.

Both Mog and Karbala are classic strategies to use against Yank Helicopters. So its not really "lacking" anything. Its just that its a Helicopter and you have to pick your battles with it. AND it cost big moolah. I think far cheaper drones like Fire Scout will be used more and more in populated areas.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

None assuming the enemy fights us in open territory with a small chance of collateral damage.

But why would they be so dumb to do so? And you cant really bypass towns and cities leaving large columns of enemy untouched.

Both Mog and Karbala are classic strategies to use against Yank Helicopters. So its not really "lacking" anything. Its just that its a Helicopter and you have to pick your battles with it. AND it cost big moolah. I think far cheaper drones like Fire Scout will be used more and more in populated areas.

They have to invent mini drones that will swarm rooms like bees, locate the insurgents and detonate between their legs.

[DaveBB]

Each round fired from the AH-64 in British service had to be accounted for on the modern day equivalent of gun camera.  The flight crews calibrated the gun sight before every sortie at a training range.  This is one of the main reasons rockets were not used, far too inaccurate.

[Rich46yo]

They have to invent mini drones that will swarm rooms like bees, locate the insurgents and detonate between their legs.

Naw SDBs and standard rockets, both laser guided, will do the trick. Hellfires for the big stuff. Its better then putting a 61 m machine into a populated Hornets nest.

I remember the Turks loved the quad 0.50's they bought or were given by us. They would ring their airfields with them. In this age of fancy rocketry never underestimate the effectiveness of a BFG.

[Widewing]

Reading the subject line, I thought that they were handing out M4 carbines and M72s on the reservation.... Those old trapdoor Springfields and Winchester Yellow Boys were finally being retired....