Author Topic: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?  (Read 18417 times)

Offline Swoop

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2014, 04:34:41 PM »
This entire discussion is getting blown out of proportion and escalating for no good reason.

Please, EVERYONE, wind your bleedin necks in.  Cease jibes and personal attacks, stop being so damn thin skinned.  


Now, we do have a valid point being made: that the TBM is not a great sub for the TBD and that A6M pilots find it much more difficult to successfully intercept and therefore, don't find those types of engagement seen before in the SEA enjoyable.  However, if I recall comments made about the forthcoming scenario correctly, this is going to be a multi-timeframe event?  ie, each successive frame will be further along in the war and a later date on the calendar?  If so.....then surely the TBD/TBM issue will only be an issue for a frame or 2?  If a CM could confirm how many frames this will be a concern for, maybe those with a concern could put up with it for a frame for the reasons CMs have already stated.  Hint hint, please say it'll be just the one frame.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 04:38:11 PM by Swoop »

Offline Brooke

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2014, 08:54:19 PM »
I believe the 75mph speed differential would be more of an issue than toughness. The issue isn't in actually shooting them down, but rather in catching them, when we have only about 25mph on them at their attack altitude, and the A6M isn't really known for its low drag airframe and high power engine allowing it to maintain speeds in excess of Vmax for any period of time.

True, but here are the various ways things went in the Coral Sea scenarios.  For torpedo bombers going the whole way on the deck, Zeros had no problem catching them, as the Zeros were not flying around on the deck.  For torpedo bombers going in at higher alts, the Zeros didn't seem to have too much trouble either for two reasons.  One is that the Zero has better speed advantage at medium alts (75 mph or so).  The other is that Zeros still are generally flying around higher than torpedo bombers.  TBM's that go in high generally are around 12-15k, but Zeros were still often up at 20-25k.

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For the gun, lets be honest, it was a single .30 caliber machine gun mounted in an aircraft that was still rather under powered, and none too great in a fight.

That's a reasonable thought, but many is the time I *desperately* wanted even a single 30 cal forward firing on my B5N.  It's weak, but there is a world of difference between no gun at all and a single 30 cal.  With no gun at all, no one has any care at all of you being on his 6.  Even with one 30 cal pinging them, they definitely don't ignore it and move.  Also, it is much, much more satisfying for the torpedo bomber pilot to have at least one forward gun.

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As for the immersion, I believe Krusty made us a Ki-45 skin for the 110C for the Road to Rangoon setup. Given that the TBD and TBM aren't identical twins either, I would think a change in skin would be perfectly sufficient to alleviate any problems.

That's why I referred to this situation earlier:  "and would have Japanese skin in the scenarios (because of how skins are implemented on the servers)".  The problem is that you can't put skins into a scenario without them being built into the terrain, and that only happens in the rare case that (1) a terrain is being rebuilt at least a couple of months in advance and (2) someone has done a suitable skin.  The odds of it are like the alignment of planets.  Getting a skin in for a scenario has happened a couple of times in 10 years.  Builds of terrains involve the terrain team putting in a bunch of work, and it has to then be run through checks and cleared by HTC.

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Given the Deck speed of the TBD was less than 200mph, the A6M's can have significant rates of closure on them at their attack altitude, even just at Vmax. However, we have to spend longer periods of time closing on the TBM's, making the CAP's job easier.

The attack speed for all torpedo bombers (regardless of Vmax) is about 200 mph.  Attackers have never had a problem getting on my torpedo bomber once I'm on the deck -- and that's whether I'm flying a TBM, B5N, Ju 88, or Ki 67 (I've flown them all as torpedo bombers in scenarios).

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And to be clear, its not that I think the TBM CAN'T be balanced, just that the B5N2 would require less balancing, as well as more closely emulating the TBD.

It hasn't required any balancing, though.  Coral Sea has equal numbers on each side, and each side has about 1/3 fighters, 1/3 dive bombers, and 1/3 torpedo bombers.  All we do is put B5N's in the for the IJN and TBD's in for the USN.

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Heres hoping they pull a fast one like they did with the P-47M then.

I hear you.  My preference list is:
Yak-1 (For Eastern Front mid-war, Yak-1 was very important)
B6N (Most-produced Japanese torpedo bomber, taking over for the early-war B5N)
D4Y (Most-produced Japanese dive bomber, taking over for early-war D3A)
Pe-2 (Most-produced Soviet attack plane other than Il-2, for Eastern Front)
TBD (Important for Battle of Coral Sea and Midway)
Beaufighter (Multi-role, would add a lot of flavor to events)

Offline Ruah

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2014, 11:16:17 PM »
I'm not sure if you flew in Coral Sea or Coral Sea 2009 scenarios, but if you are talking about FSO's, I have no idea if FSO's with TBM's in them are a lot different than how scenarios went.  In most of the scenarios, I was a GL of a torpedo bombing squadron.  There was no lack of us at times getting slaughtered in TBM's.  Usually, that was on the deck.  With some altitude, we avoided getting slaughtered whether we were in B5N's or TBM's -- until we were on the deck. The B5N was a magnificent diver with excellent high-speed handling.  A Zero couldn't easily shoot down a B5N at altitude if the pilot is alert, as he could just dive to 400-500 mph, where the B5N handles great but the Zero is very heavy on the controls.

I'm not sure if "by the rest of it" you mean anything else I wrote, but if I disagree with something for reasons, I don't change my mind just because someone brings up the same point again and again with no new information.  I wouldn't expect anyone else to do so, either.  In scenarios, the only way a person gets banned is by being disruptive and failing to tone it down after being asked to do so (sometimes repeatedly over a long period of time).  When you say "people get banned, people are told", you are being a bit overzealous with your implication.  One or two people have been banned from scenarios in the past 10 years.  I don't think I've told anyone that his opinions don't matter.  I'm always up for discussing opinions.

oh Brooke, I am not attacking you or anyone else, by the "rest of it" is referring to anything else other people may take/have issues with - whatever those issues may be - especially considering the thread i not about TBMs to begin with.  I am not a very subtle guy, my sense of subterfuge is far too Asian and is not easily translated into these kinds of threads - my post was simply stating that the TBM-3 is a major drawback to playing Axis on PTO setups, and I belive there has been quite a few posts are are very objective and technical that explain why the TBM-3 has no place in the early/mid war PTO lineup.

And yes, while it may be a bit out of place, I was referring to FSOs more then scenarios - although I think the TBM thing applies to both. 

It is a major issue from what I have seen in what other COs do and don't do - and that is all I am communicating.  No hostility intended other then saying: The TBM-3 is a direct and vast upgrade to the TBD - not a little, but a lot and I know this because I experience it every PTO.

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Offline Brooke

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2014, 12:59:53 AM »
I understand that some folks have strong opinions about the TBM.  It's just that the data shows that TBM vs. B5N is a wash in Coral Sea scenarios and "This Day in WWII:  Coral Sea" events.  That might not be the case for FSO's because of a difference in settings -- I don't know.  I didn't go through any data on any FSO's.

Offline kilo2

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2014, 02:24:29 AM »
I understand that some folks have strong opinions about the TBM.  It's just that the data shows that TBM vs. B5N is a wash in Coral Sea scenarios and "This Day in WWII:  Coral Sea" events.  That might not be the case for FSO's because of a difference in settings -- I don't know.  I didn't go through any data on any FSO's.

If it is not blue and it doesn't have a forward firing gun, TBM.

Ships sunk is not the only variable Brooke.

As examples:

How many kills were scored in a TBM.

How many planes were lost.


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Offline 68Raptor

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2014, 07:42:47 AM »
This discussion sounded very familiar so I did a quick search and found this http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,348956.75.html. I posted this since some were referencing TBMs in FSO. 

A quick look at the logs for that event shows that just about every TBM was shot down.. a few got a kill or two in TBMs and a couple of ships were destroyed by TBMs (3 I think over the 3 frames).   

Just a quick look at logs show that the TBM is a death trap with a very low survival rate.

 
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Offline fudgums

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2014, 09:26:43 AM »
This really makes me miss AH2!

Someone once told me, if you don't like it, design one yourself(even if it's chit)...

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Offline Brooke

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2014, 01:06:45 PM »
If it is not blue and it doesn't have a forward firing gun, TBM.

I'm not sure what that means.

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Ships sunk is not the only variable Brooke.

As examples:

How many kills were scored in a TBM.

How many planes were lost.

Ships sunk or torp hits are the best metric because ships sunk count 50 times more than a kill for "This Day:  Coral Sea" and 90 times more than a kill for Coral Sea scenarios.

I guarantee you that TBM's have more kills than B5N's since B5N's have no forward gun at all and since the TBM's have more defensive guns.  However, the question isn't whether or not TBM's have more kills than B5N's, the question is does it matter?  The data indicates that it does not.

And, here are the actual stats on kills from Coral Sea 2009.  TBM's got 0.7 kills per pilot.  B5N's got 0.3 kills per pilot.  TBM's and B5N's got a total of 61 kills in four frames out of a total of 865 kills in total in those four frames.  The difference in kills between TBM's and B5N's were 25 kills out of 865 kills total.  That is not significant.

Offline Shooter503

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2014, 06:27:05 PM »
Can't the computer gurus simply allow the dauntless to carry a torpedo? I know I know it is not accurate. But...  :airplane:
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2014, 09:30:07 PM »
Can't the computer gurus simply allow the dauntless to carry a torpedo? I know I know it is not accurate. But...  :airplane:

I'd give that a probability of zero to three significant digits.  ;)

Offline Gman

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2014, 05:49:19 PM »
I'm just an interested observer, and don't fly in scenarios and FSO.

One thing I would say after reading this thread today is that the word "immersion" has come up from the CM side of the argument a few times.  Does immersion not count for everyone?  Here's what I'm getting at:

The data you're using Brooke to justify the use of the TBM is accurate IMO in terms of overall scoring in the scenarios, however it isn't data that addresses the specific complaint I'm reading - guys flying IJN fighters aren't able to attack it easily, or chase it down.  You have no data for the amount of kills not achieved due to all the reasons people who have flown the Zeros vs the TBM, as there is no possible way to get that data, to be fair to your argument.  That doesn't change the fact that the "immersion" factor for those pilots flying IJN fighters, and tasked with going after the bombers, is far less "immersive" than it would be if the TBD existed, as you've said.  From what I can see, it just looks like those pilots feel short changed by your argument that even though they have a point regarding their inability to kill the TBD substitute, it shouldn't matter to them as the overall objectives of the scenario show that the IJN bombers get through and score as well as the TBMs do.  I think that the bottom line for them is that they feel they would be more fairly served by a different a/c being used as the TBD substitute, yet the reason given for that not occurring is that it would ruin the immersion factor of the pilots flying it - yet it's done at the expense of the immersion of the pilots having to attack it.

I understand these issues are mostly out of the control of the CM guys, as they don't create the aircraft, and it certainly nobody's fault that there isn't a TBD around, and like I said, I have no dog in the fight and don't even participate, but from an outside observers vantage point, I can understand why this problem keeps coming up.

Brooke wrote some very interesting posts in the last couple pages, the couple regarding scientific methods and such was one of the more interesting things I've read on the bbs in a while.

Offline Easyscor

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2014, 06:38:04 PM »
I don't fly scenarios anymore either Gman, but the TBM sub can be much worse then that.

I would argue however that the Zeke 2 can catch TBM stragglers, particularly if damaged. These guys are usually out of position and off course, giving the Zeke the opportunity to anticipate a shortcut to intercept.

Fortunately for the TBM sub, participants rarely practice leading up to a scenario anymore because IF a TBM group spends a night or two each week practicing for the month before a first frame, then eight organized TBMs can easily defeat two Zeke 2s. It rarely ever happens that way.

Queue  ROC to talk about team building and practice.  :D

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Offline Brooke

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2014, 07:10:58 PM »
. . . guys flying IJN fighters aren't able to attack it easily, or chase it down.  You have no data for the amount of kills not achieved due to all the reasons people who have flown the Zeros vs the TBM, as there is no possible way to get that data, to be fair to your argument. 

You can estimate that.  You can look at loss rate of TBM's vs. B5N's.  In Coral Sea 2009, TBM's were lost about 80% as often as B5N's.  That's a difference, but it's not large.  In fact, it is within the variance of that statistic frame to frame (lowest was TBM's lost 67% as often as B5N's in the test frame and highest was TBM's lost 120% as often as B5N's in frame 4).

My feeling is this.  Yes, Zero pilots have to work harder to kill a TBM than they would a TBD, but they just put in some extra effort, and so it doesn't translate into a significant difference in torpedo hits, deaths to fire from torpedo bombers, or kills of torpedo bombers.

In short -- I think it's the typical case of a person's perception being at odds with what the data shows.

Offline Gman

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2014, 07:30:33 PM »
You're right, I don't disagree with any of that.

What it comes down to in my opinion is that Zero pilot's perception of what exactly "extra effort" means, and that is precisely where the problem truly lies.  One side feels it's more than the other, that's all.  

Also, using your own rules regarding estimates, comparing TBM loss rates to the B5Ns I feel won't give an accurate idea of how many more of the allied bombers would be shot down if they were TBDs.  The only way to accurate measure that, is to actually use an aircraft that IS the TBD, or at least has performance numbers that are within a couple of percent either way.  We can't do that right now, as even by substituting the TBM for a Japanese bomber with an American skin, the data wouldn't be accurate, as their are huge damage point differences, as well as the fact that there are 2 very different types of fighters killing the bombers in your sample.

If the TBD is ever added, this argument could truly be settled scientifically when the same scenario is run in the future, and the loss rates of that are compared to the data you have now.  Until then, it's all just opinion, on both sides of the argument.  I realize that you're just doing what you can (CMs) with the tools you have, and that either suggested option isn't really optimal, and that you're choosing the one you think is best.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 07:38:30 PM by Gman »

Offline Brooke

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Re: Hello? chirp chirp anyone out there?
« Reply #74 on: April 26, 2014, 07:34:18 PM »
Also, using your own rules regarding estimates, comparing TBM loss rates to the B5Ns in no way can possibly give you an accurate idea of how many more of the allied bombers would be shot down if they were TBDs. 

I think it can, but it is based on my feeling that the TBD wouldn't be worse than the B5N.