Lancasters perk them?

[Karnak]

As stated, B-17s, B-24s, B-26s and Ki-67s are not free kills, but they are individually very easy kills.  Haven't tangled with Tu-2Ss so I can't comment on them.


You are also reading too little into simple K/D ratios.  You're simplifying what it means to make a point.  Spitfires, A6Ms, N1Ks, Hurris, Ki-43s and the Brewster are often used as last ditch defense fighters taking off from vulched, or nearly vulched, air fields.  That very significantly reduces their K/D ratios.  P-40s just suck so I am not even sure why you mentioned them as their K/D is obviously going to be sub par.



What none of you guys have explained is why you think that bombers would even be used if formations were removed.  The best of all free bombers, air-to-air wise, has an effective K/D of 1.17 with formations.  Take away formations and you remove two thirds of its sortie durability and a significant chunk of firepower as well as cutting its payload from 18,000lbs to 6,000lbs.  With that change you would drastically reduce its effectiveness and probably drop its K/D ratio to no better than .25 to 1, quite possibly less.

So, why would somebody plan to spend one or more hours trying to get that to target when they could easily make four or more P-51D suicide runs in the same time and be more likely to actually get their bombs and rockets to the target?  What motivation would you provide to make the bombers anything other than nearly extinct curiosities that people try once in a while only to realize why they aren't used and go back to their kamikaze heavy fighters?

You spend a lot of time talking about how it isn't fair that the bomber hurt you, but no time at all talking about what happens after the bombers get gutted to make them suicide rides.

[bozon]

What none of you guys have explained is why you think that bombers would even be used if formations were removed.  The best of all free bombers, air-to-air wise, has an effective K/D of 1.17 with formations.  Take away formations and you remove two thirds of its sortie durability and a significant chunk of firepower as well as cutting its payload from 18,000lbs to 6,000lbs.  With that change you would drastically reduce its effectiveness and probably drop its K/D ratio to no better than .25 to 1, quite possibly less.

Again, nobody is asking for formations to be removed. I was only suggesting to put a token perk price on taking the two drones (lead bomber is free ALWAYS). The only point is to make them less than completely expendable. We have seen multiple threads complaining about bomb-and-bail, lancstukas, GV carpet bombing, bombers flying away (shallow dive) at 500 mph while keeping formations intact, TU2s bombing and then ditching their drones in order to go strafe the target / attack other planes, bomber formations lifting off a defending base as ack-stars.

All of that behavior can be significantly reduced if drones meant something to the player. Unless the player is playing for score, there is currently absolutely no reason to bring drones back for a landing. Even if playing for score I am not sure that it is not more efficient to bomb and bail. That is it regarding the perks drones for 1 point idea. The discussion about effective K/D of bombers was sparked by the comment that bombers are free kills. A formation has a similar effective K/D to fighters which is why they should stay and be cheap enough that it is the norm to take them. Bomber perks are much easier to earn than fighter perks, especially for the new players. At the same time, if drones are used as bomb mules for mission from which the player has no intention to return, this should net a perk loss.

[Karnak]

That might work, but I expect the more likely result would be the wholesale abandonment of bombers and the switch to kamikazes.

A token price that the player sees as almost impossible to retain becomes a non-token price.

[artik]

+1 for bozon's suggestion.

Two reasons:

(a) 1 or 0.5 - perk for AI drone would vastly help users to care about their drones
(b) The typical "value" of damaged object is generally more than 1 perk point, so even if you fight and loose it would be worth the cost

[bozon]

The "1 perk" number is just a small number I threw as a non intimidating example. If HTC adopts the principle the acutla cost can be adjusted on the fly as they did with other perk costs.

I don't notice much the perk gain from bomber sorties, since all I need is just enough for a single Mossie XVI and I dont recall ever losing one. However, to get my first Mossie XVI (30 perks back then I think) after I reactivated my account and started from 0 perks, took only a couple of sorties in Bostons, so it must have been quite a few perks/sortie. Big bombers may have lower ENY (OBJ?) than the Bostons, but they compensate by delivering more damage per sortie. Earning bomber perks is as easy as flying to a base nobody cares about and bombing its fully up and dense city that no one is trying to take or defend. No fun and I'd rather fly a single bomber into a cloud of red, but if a player is desperate to get a few perks...

[The Fugitive]

The statistical analysis does not lie Fugi. You have 16 A2A kills (I disregarded your two kills of Liberators in shipguns) of B17, B24, and 3 deaths to them. These 16 kills divided by 3 means that you have encountered someone driving a heavy buff formation about 5 times, putting your k/d against heavies at about 5 to 3.

By comparison you have 13 kills of a P-51D this tour, against only 3 deaths to P-51Ds.

The statistics don't lie Fugi, and they clearly demonstrate that heavy bomber formations are actually more dangerous to you than P-51Ds.

Your right, stats don't lie, they PROVE I, a veteran, DO attack buffs, as a number of other veterans have posted as well. Stop evading the point. You said, you and veterans avoid attacking buffs. Your the only one lying here.

Buffs are MEANT to be tougher than a single P51. I'm sure I would fare much worst however fighting 3 P51's at the same time.

[grizz441]

Y'all still talking about perking Lancs?  If Lancs get perked, might as well perk every airplane in the game. 

[SmokinLoon]

Y'all still talking about perking Lancs?  If Lancs get perked, might as well perk every airplane in the game. 

Yeah, that's funny.   

 

[Zoney]

March 2014 stats for Zoney:

52 Lancaster kills, ZERO deaths.

30 kills in a TA152
20 Kills in a ME262
2   kills in a 109K

The challenge for me is to kill all 3 in the formation, without taking a single ping.  I accomplish that probably 80% to 90% of the time.  I've said it before and I will say it again.  Lancasters are the easiest 4 engine buff kill in the game.

Knock it off, you guys are going to take away my fun by perking the drones, or perking them all, or by reducing their ENY.  And no I don't want more perk points for killing them.

I'm just a mediocre pilot at best so if I can do this so can you.  If you are struggling killing Lancs, it's you that needs the work, not the game needing re-worked.

I'm a Knight.  Come fly with me and I will show you exactly how it is done, then when you encounter them the next time, you can forget everything you learned, have zero patience, die once again to Lancs and then start a new thread with the same tired subject.

[kvuo75]

I've never heard a "vet" see a set of buffs and say "ooh no! I'm outa here!"

it's usually more along the lines of, "mine mine mine!"

if I had to guess why buffs might have decent K/d, its because most of the time it's noob vs noob, where the noob buff gunner can only defend dead 6 attacks, and the noob attacker only attacks from the dead 6.

I'm curious my results against the legendary 999000.. if I had to guess, I have winning record, I do seem to remember getting oiled a lot though.  (probably only encountered him 4 times in last year tho)

[Karnak]

I've never heard a "vet" see a set of buffs and say "ooh no! I'm outa here!"

it's usually more along the lines of, "mine mine mine!"

Yup.  If I am alone I will be careful to set up proper attacks and such.  If I am with others I am reckless because they are MINE!!!! and I know that if I take time they'll be gone before I get a chance.

[Hoplite]

Y'all still talking about perking Lancs?  If Lancs get perked, might as well perk every airplane in the game. 

Perk the P40! It's far too effective at dying! 

[grizz441]

Excuse my language but if you don't get a raging hard-on everytime you see lancs (free kills) then you need to go to the TA.

[bozon]

Excuse my language but if you don't get a raging hard-on everytime you see lancs (free kills) then you need to go to the TA.

The reason to perk drones by at a minimal perk price has nothing to do with how difficult it is to kill bombers. We are discussing two separate issues here in parallel. Do not mix them up:
1. Are bombers free kills? effective K/D of buff formation vs. fighters.
2. Exploiting game mechanics and treating formation drones as 3-lives / expendable bomb mules.

The only link between the two is that while drones are exploited as ####, they are required in order to keep formation K/D on (general) parity with fighters.

[LilMak]

Buffs are pretty easy kills. It feels like I shoot them down at a rate of 20:1. Even the venerable 999 falls to my guns more often than not. I see no need to perk Lancs in general. I do, however, see the validity in charging a perk for drones for the reasons mentioned previously. They should have SOME value to the pilot. Perhaps, if drones are perked, there would be a provision for more drones beyond the standard two but on a sliding scale.

Example: 1st drone = one perk, 2nd drone = two perks, 3rd drone = three and so on.

I don't think it would be a travesty to give the bomber guys up to four drones provided there is a cost.