Ready for the P-47D15-23 series

[Seadog36]

Over 7000 of the 15,000 P-47s built were Razorback. wing pylon. paddle blade prop variants. Half  :furiousthe D-11 skins are of later Razorbacks. It would be an easy upgrade to give the D-11 template pylons and D-25 performance and ordnance options. I know this is a rehash, but it needs some attention!

[Karnak]

There is almost no gain for that work.  That is the thing holding it back.  I can list many similar options for other aircraft that are much more significant than essentially asking for a different skin for an existing aircraft.  The P-47s are already the best represented aircraft in the game with a higher density of models per year they were active than any other aircraft in AH, even more than the Bf109s and Spitfires.

[Seadog36]

Thank you Karnak, you make my point for me. Most used/popular aircraft in the game and historically significant should be properly represented. The D25,D40 and M were very small production runs. No new skins would need to be made. The existing D11 skins meant for later model variants could be reallocated.

[Karnak]

I didn't say anything about being the most popular or used in the game and adding the D-23, a fine idea in a vacuum, wouldn't change that.  There are Bf109s and Spitfires that are much bigger gaps because they have actual performance differences compared to the models in the game.

The problem you have with the D-23 is that it is just a D-25 that looks like a D-11.  It doesn't add anything else.

If it weren't for the developer resources needed to do it that would be one thing, but there is such a tiny, tiny gain from the addition of the D-23 that it simply doesn't make sense to spend those resources there in my opinion.


Bf109s:
1940: Bf109E-4
1941: Bf109F-4
1942: Bf109G-2
1943: Bf109G-6
1944: Bf109G-6/AS, Bf109G-14, Bf109K-4
1945: -

Spitfires:
1940: Spitfire Mk Ia
1941: Spitfire Mk Vb
1942: Seafire Mk II, Spitfire Mk IX
1943: Seafire Mk III, Spitfire Mk VIII
1944: Spitfire Mk XIV, Spitfire Mk XVI
1945: -

P-47:
1940: -
1941: -
1942: -
1943: P-47D-5
1944: P-47D-23, P-47D-25, P-47D-40
1945: P-47M, P-47N

[glzsqd]

I think we need some P47Cs before we fill the list up with any more D models.

[Seadog36]

Only a very small number of C models saw service, and performance was virtually identical to the early Ds though it lacked the reinforced ventral section to carry a drop tank initially. All of the B models and Curtis built G models we kept in the US for training squadrons. With the first P-47C and early D combat mission in April 43, they do not squeak into EW time frame even though they were operating in the US in 42.

I don't see your point in your spitfire, 109. P-47 list. Almost every model is represented except the D 21/23. This is not a wouldn't it be nice, we are talking about THE largest production block, more than half of one of the most ubiquitous fighters built not being in the game. Instead we have the lowest production models in the D 25,40 and M overrepresented. The D30 was the most produced bubble top and it isn't in either. We are not talking major investment of resources to fix the discrepancy, when compared to adding completely new models like the Yak 3 or Tu Tu which HTC has been popping out at a rapid rate.

[Seadog36]

D21/23

[Karnak]

P-47 currently has five models covering three years of service, 1.667 models per year.  The Spitfire has 1.167 models per year covering its six years of WWII service.  The Bf109 has 1 model per year covering its six years of WWII service.

The P-47 has denser coverage than either of those two lines.  In addition the missing Spitfires and Bf109s are more significant that the P-47D-23 because they actually perform differently than the Spitfires and Bf109s that we already have.  Your production numbers mean pretty much nothing because the P-47D-25 already exists in the game and provides the same performance as the P-47D-23.

It is all and well to be totally focused on your favorite kind of plane, but you need to step out of that and look at the big picture.  On the scale of missing variants for series aircraft in AH the P-47D-23 is right down near the bottom because it can so easily and effectively be substituted with the P-47D-25.

[glzsqd]

I can see were Seadog is coming from, I for one wish I could put the razor back canopy on all the p47 variants.

[Randy1]

Looking back, the D25 probably should have been a late razorback but I am sure at the time there was a clamor for a bubble top.  When I choose a 47 to take out I choose the variant for its advantages.  The D11 for its fighter skills, the D40 for attack missions and the M for pure killing power.  I don't think I would take out a latter model razorback that could not perform as well in an attack mission as the D40.

[Seadog36]

I can see were Seadog is coming from, I for one wish I could put the razor back canopy on all the p47 variants.

Thank you glzsqd. There is definitely a role for bubble canopy variants especially in the N for the LW Pacific arena, but the main point is most of the swarms of 47s doing the ground pounding in the war were Razorbacks, which are not well represented by the single hardpoint D-11 in the game. Furthermore D-11s and earlier models were retrofitted with wing hardpoints almost from the get go when it became obvious that their short range without drops severely limited their missions in both Europe and the Pacific. 

[Wmaker]

Most used/popular aircraft in the game and historically significant should be properly represented.

It is already more than properly represented as Karnak said.

[Greebo]

Any later Razorback skin that has been skinned on the D-11 shape would have to modified before it could be used as a D-23 skin in order to add the wing pylon's texture. The problem with doing this is that there is not a large enough gap on the D-11 skin's bmp file to fit the wing pylon, on the bubble-top Jugs it is placed where the Razorback area of the LH fuselage would have been.

I'd think it unlikely HTC would add a late Razorback until the P-47 series gets redone to the latest standard and this probably won't happen until all the AH1-era planes have been updated.

[Seadog36]

Looking back, the D25 probably should have been a late razorback but I am sure at the time there was a clamor for a bubble top.  When I choose a 47 to take out I choose the variant for its advantages.  The D11 for its fighter skills, the D40 for attack missions and the M for pure killing power.  I don't think I would take out a latter model razorback that could not perform as well in an attack mission as the D40.

I agree Randy, they also changed the P-51B to a Malcolm hood bubble variation too because people preferred not to have the obstruction of the IMHO more attractive and realistic factory installed "birdcage" canopy, even though HTC has a policy of "no field modifications" for ingame vehicles and aircraft.

Most top scoring US aces got the bulk of their kills flying Razorback Ds not P-51s. Chances are you will see Ms zooming around because everything in the MAs is uber even though only 315 were ever built and barely saw service in the last months of the ETO. Once you dropped your ord, you would be much happier dog fighting in a D-23 than the heavier sluggish D-40. If you want some convincing reading, try Widewing's interview of Robert S Johnson on the bbs: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=27675.30

Wmaker~ The 47 is definitely and unfortunately improperly represented, though HTC has an opportunity to correct the oversight, whether Karnak likes it or not is inconsequential.

You are probably right Greebo~ I'm just trying to usher in the update bestowed on the C-47, B-26 and others. Btw thanks for the new 318th skin. The old holdup in inserting new skins seems to have been reduced.

[-ammo-]

+1 for the D21 or D23.

I can see Karnak's rationale for disagreement. That said,  the D23 would out perform the D25 as a fighter, and SD correctly argues a Late D model would best represent the the P-47 model in AH as it did in three theaters of WW2.  The razorback has a cleaner airframe than the Bubble top and should handle better than the D25 at all speeds.