P-63 King cobra & the French.

[Vinkman]

You're just comparing it to superior planes stat by stat. And I don't know where you got your numbers. The F4U-4 is faster on the deck than a P-51D, 109K4 and can match La-7 and 190D9.

Why is the Tempest perked? A Bf-109K4 can easily outrun it above 16K, climbs worse than a La-7 and the armament is worse than a mossie's!  See? There will always be a better plane in a specifit stat, as Saxman put it it's the whole package that matters.

The F4U-4 is one of the fastest on the deck and little else can outrun it at altitude, climbs well and can carry a lot of rockets, bombs and fuel. This performance envelope is shared by no other aircraft in the whole planeset, not even the Tempest.

Why do you make a non-case and say that's my case? The Pony D is better in every category than the U-4 except low speed turn rate. So the pony isn't perked based on it's turn rate differential compared to a F4U-4? But rather than get lost in performance discussions....

Just clarify what you think determines perk cost.  I think there might be criteria other than performance.

What say you?

[Saxman]

The Pony D is better in every category than the U-4 except low speed turn rate.

The P-51D is marginally faster from 2000ft-12,000ft.

The F4U-4 out-accelerates the Mustang in all speed bands.

The F4U-4 outclimbs the Mustang at all altitudes under WEP, and the advantage is quite significant between 8000-20,000ft.

The F4U-4 is tougher.

The F4U-4 carries an extra pair of rockets.

The F4Us in general out-maneuver the Mustang.

The F4U-4 out-guns the Mustang (the P-51 loadout is either 4x .50cal with 400rds in one pair and 500rds in the second pair, or 6x .50cal with 500rds in one pair, and 270rds in the remaining four. The F4U-4 has 6x .50cal with 400rds in all guns. Either the Mustang has to reduce its volume of fire to match the Corsair's firing time, or temporarily match the Corsair's firepower at the cost of a drastic reduction in weight of fire once the four guns are dry).

The Mustang has better all-around visibility

The Mustang has longer range on internal fuel.

Yeah, I can see how the Mustang is superior in all categories.

[Randy1]

My WAG is the King Cobra would be perked out of the bag but would eventually find its way to the unperked list after the new wears off.

[Vinkman]

The P-51D is marginally faster from 2000ft-12,000ft. 

The F4U-4 out-accelerates the Mustang in all speed bands.

The F4U-4 outclimbs the Mustang at all altitudes under WEP, and the advantage is quite significant between 8000-20,000ft.

The F4U-4 is tougher.

The F4U-4 carries an extra pair of rockets.

The F4Us in general out-maneuver the Mustang.

The F4U-4 out-guns the Mustang (the P-51 loadout is either 4x .50cal with 400rds in one pair and 500rds in the second pair, or 6x .50cal with 500rds in one pair, and 270rds in the remaining four. The F4U-4 has 6x .50cal with 400rds in all guns. Either the Mustang has to reduce its volume of fire to match the Corsair's firing time, or temporarily match the Corsair's firepower at the cost of a drastic reduction in weight of fire once the four guns are dry).

The Mustang has better all-around visibility

The Mustang has longer range on internal fuel.

Yeah, I can see how the Mustang is superior in all categories.

You didn't answer my question.

[Saxman]

Actually, I did. Either you just ignored it, or you just don't want to see it.

It's not a question at all over whether there are criteria beyond performance that justifies the perk cost, the -4 just plain has FAR too many advantages over any of its potential adversaries to remove the perk.

If the F4U-4 is unperked, you will never, EVER see another aircraft launch from a carrier in Late War. Every CV op will be a horde of F4U-4s, whose combined stats make it THE best all-around fighter in the game. You certainly wouldn't see another Corsair. It carries too much ordinance. It's too maneuverable. It's too fast. It climbs too well. It can switch too easily between E-fighting and a maneuvering contest. It doesn't matter that Plane A has a speed advantage in specific altitude band, or if Plane B has Hispanos.

[Xavier]

Why do you make a non-case and say that's my case? The Pony D is better in every category than the U-4 except low speed turn rate. So the pony isn't perked based on it's turn rate differential compared to a F4U-4? But rather than get lost in performance discussions....

The F4U-4 Is faster and climbs way better than the pony. I don't know why you said the pony is better in every category besides low speed turn rate.

Just clarify what you think determines perk cost.  I think there might be criteria other than performance.

I think that a plane deserves to be perked when it has performance (specially speed and/or armament) notably above the rest of the planeset.

[Vinkman]

Actually, I did. Either you just ignored it, or you just don't want to see it.

It's not a question at all over whether there are criteria beyond performance that justifies the perk cost, the -4 just plain has FAR too many advantages over any of its potential adversaries to remove the perk.

If the F4U-4 is unperked, you will never, EVER see another aircraft launch from a carrier in Late War. ...You certainly wouldn't see another Corsair.

Why does that matter, unless the developers think a rare bird shouldn't fill the arena?

Perk the La-7 because no one flies the La-5
Perk the Pony D because no one flies the B model.
Perk the SPit16 because no one flies the Mark 5

Those aren't perked bacause they weren't rare. The F4U-4 was rare, as was the C-hog.

Yes, I made a mistake when I checked the Pony vs F4U-4 numbers. I blame my browser which doesn't correctly load the plane performance page causing me to use the back button to reload a new chart. I hadn't realized that it changed the plane selection back to a F4U-D. So subsequent charts I studied had the wrong F4U-data.

I still think it's not just about a performance score. that was my whole point. I tried to make that case with examples but you think the C-hog and F4U-4 are obviously uber. I don't.

I still think the objection to the C-hog was that everyone was flying it, and purest whined that it saw very little action in the war and so it shouldn't be so prevelant. If they built 30,000 C-hogs and they all saw service, I think HTC would have left it unperked. 

Do you disagree? 

[Lusche]

Those aren't perked bacause they weren't rare. The F4U-4 was rare, as was the C-hog.

Real world rarity is not playing any role. If it were, the Ta-152H (only a handful ever to see combat) would have never been unperked years ago. The Wirbelwind and Ostwind would be heavily perked with only ~105 and 43(!) built

From the HTC website:

The perk system is a way for HTC to introduce some interesting but otherwise unbalancing planes on a limited basis but the benefits go deeper than that.  Perk planes (and vehicles) would be things like Me 262s, Ta 152s, Tempests, B-29s, Ar 234s, Tiger IIs, etc.  These are interesting rides but would be very unbalancing if they were available on an unlimited basis.  So there won't be unlimited availability but they'll be available as bonuses or perks every so often.

That's all the perk system is about.

I still think the objection to the C-hog was that everyone was flying it, and purest whined that it saw very little action in the war and so it shouldn't be so prevelant. If they built 30,000 C-hogs and they all saw service, I think HTC would have left it unperked. 

Do you disagree? 

Disagree very much. The F4U_C totally dominated the arena at that time, creating a severe imbalance. That's why it was perked.

[Saxman]

Disagree very much. The F4U_C totally dominated the arena at that time, creating a severe imbalance. That's why it was perked.

And if it were unperked, it would most definitely cause an imbalance once again, even if it's not to the same extent now as it was when first introduced.

Even if the 1-series Hogs are nowhere near as dominating as the -4 (and despite your lack of respect for the model, the -4 is DEFINITELY a dominating fighter), all are solid and competitive aircraft regardless of the competition they're up against because of their balance of characteristics. The Charlie may be the "worst" performing of the lot, but the difference between it and the 1D are so minute as to be virtually nonexistent (and I mean we're talking about 1-3mph speed difference, turn rates not even 1dps off, etc.) AND it has cannon. You're out of your mind if you honestly believe that removing the perk from the 1C wouldn't be severely disruptive to the game.

[Vinkman]

Real world rarity is not playing any role. If it were, the Ta-152H (only a handful ever to see combat) would have never been unperked years ago. The Wirbelwind and Ostwind would be heavily perked with only ~105 and 43(!) built

From the HTC website:
That's all the perk system is about.

Disagree very much. The F4U_C totally dominated the arena at that time, creating a severe imbalance. That's why it was perked.

Ok, did it got more use on a percent basis than the Pony and Spit 16?

But let me ask a different question. HTC says "balance" and "Un-balance"  what does that mean? Does that mean the same number of every plane is balance? Or that each plane's use reflects war use? Or does it mean the game-play is balanced? What does game-play balance mean? True about the whirble. HTC has stated that it balances game-play between GV's and planes, base defense and base capture. So it's not perked. This make your point, but...

What would un-perked F4U-4s unbalance?  I.E. The F4U use distribution? F4U vs other plane type distribution? Fighters vs bombers?

I think the answer lies in what "balance" means to HTC. It can mean a couple of different things.

[Lusche]

So it got more use on a percent basis than the Pony and Spit 16?

Yes, and a much better K/D as well, of course. IT was very much dominating the arena, not only by pure stats but also by playing experience.
Not totally unlike the 262, a gaggle of F4U-Cs flying around pretty much changes the combat environment.


Perks were entirely introduced for arena balance purposes (as stated by HTC).

[Rich46yo]

F4U-4 is a beast. A BEAST!

[Lusche]

Overall 'usage' and k/d of fighters in tour 12 - two months before perk system was started to being introduced:




Even more telling way to determine the arena "dominator" is to put K-D in a chart - how much more does a fighter kill than it's being killed, in comparison to all other fighters

[Rich46yo]

The F4U-4 is a better handling airplane at all speeds. To me at least tho I dont have data and its all "feel" to me. Its ability to outclimb, out accelerate, turn better at a wide range of speeds, puts it way ahead of the Mustang. Also I feel it dives and rolls better and is better at delivering ords accurately. The U-4 is the best Yank jabo in the game.

The P-51D is marginally faster from 2000ft-12,000ft.

The F4U-4 out-accelerates the Mustang in all speed bands.

The F4U-4 outclimbs the Mustang at all altitudes under WEP, and the advantage is quite significant between 8000-20,000ft.

The F4U-4 is tougher.

The F4U-4 carries an extra pair of rockets.

The F4Us in general out-maneuver the Mustang.

The F4U-4 out-guns the Mustang (the P-51 loadout is either 4x .50cal with 400rds in one pair and 500rds in the second pair, or 6x .50cal with 500rds in one pair, and 270rds in the remaining four. The F4U-4 has 6x .50cal with 400rds in all guns. Either the Mustang has to reduce its volume of fire to match the Corsair's firing time, or temporarily match the Corsair's firepower at the cost of a drastic reduction in weight of fire once the four guns are dry).

The Mustang has better all-around visibility

The Mustang has longer range on internal fuel.

Yeah, I can see how the Mustang is superior in all categories.

[Vinkman]

Yes, and a much better K/D as well, of course. IT was very much dominating the arena, not only by pure stats but also by playing experience.
Not totally unlike the 262, a gaggle of F4U-Cs flying around pretty much changes the combat environment.


Perks were entirely introduced for arena balance purposes (as stated by HTC).

We are stuck on the C-hog which I will just agreee is uber. so it's not a good example.

So in your opinion, the TA-152, and F4U-4 is perked because if it were unperked, they would unblance the arena?