Author Topic: F-35  (Read 16955 times)

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: F-35
« Reply #135 on: May 10, 2014, 04:16:40 PM »
OK then...
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: F-35
« Reply #136 on: May 10, 2014, 04:26:11 PM »
The Japanese were "first tier"?

Completely first tier. 
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: F-35
« Reply #137 on: May 10, 2014, 04:31:16 PM »
Yes, very highly trained.  The Finns would not have seen the success they did against the Soviets had they been facing the IJN pilots of 1942.  The IJN pilots in 1942 probably had the highest average skill level of any air force in the world.  Due to the inadequacies of the Japanese training program that was shortly not true, but when the USMC faced them at Midway it still was.

And, once we developed appropriate ACM to counter their maneuverability, they began to lose their most successful, experienced pilots.  And that caused their training program to be toilet fodder.
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: F-35
« Reply #138 on: May 10, 2014, 04:34:09 PM »
Pilot quality yes, but not aircraft technology. The best 1942 Japanese fighters are rather a poor match to their European contemporaries.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: F-35
« Reply #139 on: May 10, 2014, 04:36:11 PM »
And, once we developed appropriate ACM to counter their maneuverability, they began to lose their most successful, experienced pilots.  And that caused their training program to be toilet fodder.

I read the AAR for the Midway battle, the USMC pilots were basically "inexperienced" right out of the Cadets. Some of the Buffalo pilots claimed the Zero was doing 450mph or faster, while others climbing endless without slowing down. The only thing noted was the Japanese Zeros were paper thin.
In the first month the USMC in January 1942 pushed out more pilots then the Japanese did in ALL of 1942 and some of 1943. Our veteran pilots were rotated out to train pilots, while the Japanese didn't start this until 1944 - FAR after the 1942/1943 battles that torn apart the Japanese.

The Japanese were able to crank out pilots in 1944, however with most of their experienced pilots dead - it was a lost cause, Australian and New Zealand pilots were working well with American counterparts, enough the P-40 and P-39 had a decent kill ratio against the Japanese (I didn't say it was flawless).
New Aircrafts like the P-38G and P-47 (although only a few were in service compared to 38s due to range) made a hell of a difference as well.

Japanese had a first rate airforce, Guadalcanal killed it forcing the pilots to fly over 8 hours - then combat, where the Americans took 15 minutes to up and were fresh. Even though the Japanese had "Aces" the Americans had time on their hands, it basically tipped the balance.
JG 52

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: F-35
« Reply #140 on: May 10, 2014, 04:37:48 PM »
Pilot quality yes, but not aircraft technology. The best 1942 Japanese fighters are rather a poor match to their European contemporaries.

Japan produced the Ki-43 and Zero in 1940, both were better then the euro counterparts, problem was lack of research and development - let alone any advance research.

JG 52

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: F-35
« Reply #141 on: May 10, 2014, 04:45:25 PM »
Pilot quality yes, but not aircraft technology. The best 1942 Japanese fighters are rather a poor match to their European contemporaries.
The A6M2 is handily superior to the F2A3.  Put it in the hands of a numerically superior, better trained force and the outcome is predictable.

Keep in mind that the Finns were not facing Spitfire Mk IXs, Fw190A-4s, Bf109G-2s and P-47Cs either.  They were mostly facing I-16s, Yak-1s, LaGG-3s and MiG-3s, which hardly match the top line European models, with their B-239s.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: F-35
« Reply #142 on: May 10, 2014, 05:01:27 PM »
Which brings us around to my original question.

Soviets "second tier" compared to the Japanese? Lol!

Clearly the Japanese were not "first tier" compared to Germany and Britain, and later in the war, America. As such the Brewster's service in Finnish service is relevant. That the Marine pilots were greenhorns is not the fault of the plane, now is it.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14121
Re: F-35
« Reply #143 on: May 10, 2014, 05:11:41 PM »
Which brings us around to my original question.

Clearly the Japanese were not "first tier" compared to Germany and Britain, and later in the war, America. As such the Brewster's service in Finnish service is relevant. That the Marine pilots were greenhorns is not the fault of the plane, now is it.

Tripping without luggage. 

The IJN was the toughest air arm to qualify for.  They were elite.   Until they got chewed up by the Marines in the Solomons.
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
- THE DAMNED -
King of the Hill Champ Tour 219 - Win Percentage 100
"1v1 Skyyr might be the best pilot ever to play the game." - Via PM, Name Redacted

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: F-35
« Reply #144 on: May 10, 2014, 05:15:31 PM »
Japan produced the Ki-43 and Zero in 1940, both were better then the euro counterparts, problem was lack of research and development - let alone any advance research.



Hardly. The A6M1 of 1940 had only 780 hp. The 950 hp late-1941-1942 A6M2 is still not a match for 1940 Spits and Messers.






Even the late-war A6M5b was only a match to a 1940 Spitfire.


"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: F-35
« Reply #145 on: May 10, 2014, 05:20:21 PM »
Soviet Yak-7 entered service in 1942.




Safe to say the Japanese were not "first rate" by any measure. True their pilots were well trained, but they were tactically naive, something the Americans learned to exploit. Doesn't matter how well you're trained if you're trained to be an 18th century Samurai in a 20th century war.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 05:43:06 PM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: F-35
« Reply #146 on: May 10, 2014, 06:12:02 PM »
Soviet Yak-7 entered service in 1942.

(Image removed from quote.)


Safe to say the Japanese were not "first rate" by any measure. True their pilots were well trained, but they were tactically naive, something the Americans learned to exploit. Doesn't matter how well you're trained if you're trained to be an 18th century Samurai in a 20th century war.
The Finns weren't often facing Yak-7s in their B-239s.  Those were usually deployed against the Germans.

In addition, using AH players, I am not at all sure I'd bet on a force of Yak-7s over a force of A6M3s.  All the Yaks could really do is run away.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: F-35
« Reply #147 on: May 10, 2014, 06:19:29 PM »
A squadron of Yaks vs a squadron of Zekes. Would depend on the players. Yaks can leave the fight at any time if cought in a bad spot, but also force the Zekes to fight from a disadvantage. Same as the Americans did in the real war. Give the Zekes to some furballers (Samurai) and the Yaks to a dedicated B&Z squad... Best the Zekes can hope for is a draw as the Yaks leave to fight another day.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: F-35
« Reply #148 on: May 10, 2014, 06:20:49 PM »
The Finns weren't often facing Yak-7s in their B-239s.  Those were usually deployed against the Germans.

Yeah, the Finns were facing aircraft more on par with the Japanese at that time. Which was my point.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: F-35
« Reply #149 on: May 10, 2014, 06:27:48 PM »
Not sure how the Finns were facing Yak-7's, most of the reports I seen they were facing Polikarpov I-153 and I-16s. There were Mig-1 and Yak-1's generally, it wasn't until 1944 that the Finnish faced some of the better Russian fighters.
Not taking anything away from the Finns, but they generally did fly pretty decent aircraft, the B-239 wasn't all that bad - most of the Finns flew 109G2s and 109G6's which were pretty good aircraft.

Also take note, the Finnish only mostly flew interception missions, they could pick the battle and retreat as they wanted, unlike the russians.


JG 52