F-35

[Butcher]

See Rule #2

[Wmaker]

I have plenty of sources.  Try a yahoo search for starters.   I also have books on my shelf including two histories on the Buffalo.   I'm not doing your homework for you.

Proving/verifying your statements is a very basic rule of argumentation. It is up to you to prove that your arguments are correct.

Once they started facing real airplanes they got their butts kicked and withdrew the Buffalo from front-line service.

Again, Brewsters were never withdrawn from combat during the war. Last kill by LLv26 flying Brewsters during continuation war was claimed on 27th of July '44.

During the summer of '44 Brewsters scored 17 kills while losing 2 aircraft in combat themselves (source: LeR 3 by Keskinen & Stenman). That's quite far from "getting butts kicked". As said, your comment was totally clueless. The book in the shelf won't do much if you don't/can't read it or can't comprehend what you are reading.

[Vraciu]

Some sources say 17 victories for four losses as a second-line fighter.  The 17 number is likely an overclaim if Russian records are to be believed.


There is no denying the success the Finns had with the airplane overall.   But keep it in the proper perspective.

[Wmaker]

Some sources say 17 victories for four losses as a second-line fighter.  The 17 number is likely an overclaim if Russian records are to be believed.


There is no denying the success the Finns had with the airplane overall.   But keep it in the proper perspective.

It is not me who is having trouble with facts and perspective.

As far overclaiming, just for the sake of the argument I'll say Vraciu didn't shoot a single plane down. Sources? What sources!? Do your own research!

See my point?

[Vraciu]

It is not me who is having trouble with facts and perspective.

As far overclaiming, just for the sake of the argument I'll say Vraciu didn't shoot a single plane down. Sources? What sources!? Do your own research!

See my point?

You make no point other than your inability/unwillingness to use a search engine.

[morfiend]

  Not to go to far off topic but Gscholz but Dec 8th wasnt the first day of the war!

   Maybe it was the first day the US declared war but many Canadian,British,French,Polish,etc boys died long before Dec 8th 1942.
m

  The Japanese Air Force was a highly trained outfit that had what was one of the best A/C at the time. Say what you will about it's speed,fragility,etc it was so dominant that almost every Japanese plane was called a ZERO......


   The F35 I have no opinion on,frankly I think unmanned A/C will fight any future war,it just makes sense.  Besides what do you guys think I've been doing for years now,train future drone pilots!



     

[GScholz]

See Rule #4

[Oldman731]

See Rule #4

[GScholz]

The Chinese were not part of the British Commonwealth or the United States of America.

[morfiend]

See Rule #2

[Wmaker]

You make no point other than your inability/unwillingness to use a search engine.

Actually I did make point. You just failed to grasp it.

How come the Russians were never able to destroy the Fins on the ground? airfields out of range?

Well Soviets did manage destroy planes on ground (regarding Brewster the most notable case was raid on Immola airbase 2nd of July '44 where three Brewsters were destroyed on the ground) on couple of occasions but strafing airfields won't really cripple a whole air force. Also Karelian region had quite a few (see Karelia terrain in AH) remote air bases. When aerial attacks started to become more frequent, a base could be changed and planes were kept well hidden in the out skirts of the airfield in the woods. That way planes were harder to target from the air and squadron was free of attacks until Soviets figured where they had moved this time. During the Winter war several iced lakes were used in this manner.

A random sample of kills by LLv26's Brewsters:

17.06.44, 16.45-17.45, P-39
17.06.44, 17.20-17.25, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, La-5
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 10.50-11.30, La-5
14.07.44, 15.15-16.50, Yak-9
14.07.44, 16.00-16.30, Yak-9
15.07.44, 11.35-12.55, LaGG-3
16.07.44, 13.10, La-5
16.07.44, 13.17, La-5
27.08.44, 09.30-11.15, P-40

...this is the reason why it is getting a bit tiring to hear that "Brewsters only faced I-153s and I-16s".

During the summer of '44 Brewsters scored 17 kills while losing 2* aircraft in combat themselves (source: LeR 3 by Keskinen & Stenman).

*Wanted to correct myself. The actual number is four instead of two. The error was caused by the list of loss reports which ended to 20th of July '44. I double checked the number from Jukka Raunio's book but he had made the same error. Jaakko Hyvönen has written an excellent book which lists all the FiAF losses where an aircraft was completely lost or cases where someone had parachuted. It mentions the other two Brewster losses on 29th and 30th of July. So four is the correct total for LLv26's Brewster losses in combat. Doesn't change the fact that an exchange ratio of little over four is hardly "getting one's butt kicked".

[GScholz]

See Rule #2

[Vraciu]

Actually I did make point. You just failed to grasp it.



A random sample of kills by LLv26's Brewsters:

17.06.44, 16.45-17.45, P-39
17.06.44, 17.20-17.25, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, La-5
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 10.50-11.30, La-5
14.07.44, 15.15-16.50, Yak-9
14.07.44, 16.00-16.30, Yak-9
15.07.44, 11.35-12.55, LaGG-3
16.07.44, 13.10, La-5
16.07.44, 13.17, La-5
27.08.44, 09.30-11.15, P-40

...this is the reason why it is getting a bit tiring to hear that "Brewsters only faced I-153s and I-16s".


*Wanted to correct myself. The actual number is four instead of two. The error was caused by the list of loss reports which ended to 20th of July '44. I double checked the number from Jukka Raunio's book but he had made the same error. Jaakko Hyvönen has written an excellent book which lists all the FiAF losses where an aircraft was completely lost or cases where someone had parachuted. It mentions the other two Brewster losses on 29th and 30th of July. So four is the correct total for LLv26's Brewster losses in combat. Doesn't change the fact that an exchange ratio of little over four is hardly "getting one's butt kicked".

I already corrected you.  See, you can do research after all.  

Now go find the overclaims.

Only four of the victories in your list can be considered against first line airplanes.   That's hardly a resounding success for four losses.

The Brewster's primary successes were against second tier opponents/pilots/airplanes.  I hardly consider the P-40 or P-39 particularly vaunted.   They were obsolescent on the day they were introduced, never mind in 1944.

[Karnak]

A random sample of kills by LLv26's Brewsters:

17.06.44, 16.45-17.45, P-39
17.06.44, 17.20-17.25, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, La-5
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 07.45-09.05, Pe-2
18.06.44, 10.50-11.30, La-5
14.07.44, 15.15-16.50, Yak-9
14.07.44, 16.00-16.30, Yak-9
15.07.44, 11.35-12.55, LaGG-3
16.07.44, 13.10, La-5
16.07.44, 13.17, La-5
27.08.44, 09.30-11.15, P-40

Unless you used dice to select kills off of the total list those aren't random.  They have the look of being cherry picked to make your point.

[Changeup]

The LaGG3 was a wooden plane held together with lacquer.  I'm fairly certain it wasn't a front line fighter as its nickname was "guaranteed varnish coffin"