Bomber Combat simulation in Aces High

[GScholz]

Yes.  Because it is more important for the game to survive than to have realistic bomber gunnery.

Realism (or at least the feeling thereof) is the only thing this game has over other MMO games like WT.

[Volron]

I see this is still going...


Hmm...  Okay, for those of you who think bombers are too hard to kill/have it too easy, why don't you all get together and fly in a formation of bombers, no formations enabled (following a more historic route).  Then do it again, with formations enabled.  Make sure you take escorts for both.  Target a long range target, deep in enemy territory (8+ sector round trip flight).  None of that, "I don't have time for that" BS either.  You can make the time.  Make plans to get together and do it a month or two from now if needed.

Let's see how you do.

Forgot to mention, do those two things without escort as well.

[FLS]

Are people here really advocating making "gameplay balancing" to aircraft performance in AH? Because that's what this is.

It's not aircraft performance at issue. It's the game feature of one gunner firing all guns on 3 aircraft that bear on one target.

[Karnak]

It's not aircraft performance at issue. It's the game feature of one gunner firing all guns on 3 aircraft that bear on one target.

They don't bear on one target.  That is a common misconception.  They converge at 500 yards.  If the fighter is at 800 yards and the bullets from one of the bombers are hitting/narrowly missing it then the bullets from the other two bombers are missing it by dozens of yards.

[Brooke]

Some of you guys are making a mistake in your math on this.

For bomber pilots, kills / (bombers lost) is not 3 * K/D but at most 1/3 * K/D because K/loss = K/D * D/loss, and D/loss is at most 1/3 (i.e., one D per 3 losses).  I say "at most" because there are times when there is no death, but one or two bombers were shot down.  Thus D/loss is even smaller than 1/3.

For B-17's, if average K/D is 0.33, then average K/(bomber lost) is less than 0.11.

[Karnak]

Some of you guys are making a mistake in your math on this.

For bomber pilots, kills / (bombers lost) is not 3 * K/D but at most 1/3 * K/D because K/loss = K/D * D/loss, and D/loss is at most 1/3 (i.e., one D per 3 losses).  I say "at most" because there are times when there is no death, but one or two bombers were shot down.  Thus D/loss is even smaller than 1/3.

For B-17's, if average K/D is 0.33, then average K/(bomber lost) is less than 0.11.

I think you're mistaken.  If a bomber player loses all three bombers while killing a single fighter that is 3 deaths and 1 kill, 0.333/1 K/D.

[Karnak]

Realism (or at least the feeling thereof) is the only thing this game has over other MMO games like WT.

How can that be balanced with the fact (it has happened in the past when the bombsight was made more realistic) that such changes lead to the abandonment of bombers as a tool in AH?  Should kamikaze fighter-bombers just be accepted as the way things have to be?

What about more realistic gunnery, but full 10 plane boxes for each player?  Would that work?

[Brooke]

I think you're mistaken.  If a bomber player loses all three bombers while killing a single fighter that is 3 deaths and 1 kill, 0.333/1 K/D.

3 losses and 1 kill, but that is one death reported to the bomber pilot, right, or am I not understanding how the stats pages report K/D for bombers?  In other words, if a bomber pilot goes up in his formation, shoots down one fighter and loses all three bomber aircraft, won't he see in his stats a K/D of 1; but K/loss would be 1/3.

[Karnak]

3 losses and 1 kill, but that is one death reported to the bomber pilot, right, or am I not understanding how the stats pages report K/D for bombers?  In other words, if a bomber pilot goes up in his formation, shoots down one fighter and loses all three bomber aircraft, won't he see in his stats a K/D of 1; but K/loss would be 1/3.

Three deaths for the bomber player.

[Brooke]

Three deaths for the bomber player.

Thanks for correcting me on that.

The stats in the game then do count every death of a drone as a death in the K/D stats?

Then, no correction needed, and folks still shouldn't be multiplying it by 3, right?

[GScholz]

How can that be balanced with the fact (it has happened in the past when the bombsight was made more realistic) that such changes lead to the abandonment of bombers as a tool in AH?  Should kamikaze fighter-bombers just be accepted as the way things have to be?

What about more realistic gunnery, but full 10 plane boxes for each player?  Would that work?

I kind of like the idea of a full box of bombers. However, I mostly want more realistic gunnery for all aircraft = more turbulence and atmospheric effects; actual slipstream from aircraft. Aiming at long range is far too easy as it is now.

[Karnak]

I kind of like the idea of a full box of bombers. However, I mostly want more realistic gunnery for all aircraft = more turbulence and atmospheric effects; actual slipstream from aircraft. Aiming at long range is far too easy as it is now.

Long ago I posted a wish for wake turbulance and propwash in the Wishlist forum.

[FLS]

They don't bear on one target.  That is a common misconception.  They converge at 500 yards.  If the fighter is at 800 yards and the bullets from one of the bombers are hitting/narrowly missing it then the bullets from the other two bombers are missing it by dozens of yards.

Thanks for clarifying.   They all hit the same target at 500 yards. Which is why many players wait to shoot then. That convergence seems to be a big part of Traveler's criticism.

[Karnak]

Thanks for clarifying.   They all hit the same target at 500 yards. Which is why many players wait to shoot then. That convergence seems to be a big part of Traveler's criticism.

Heh.  My experience in bombers says that if I wait until 500 yards one or more of my bombers has already been destroyed.

Also, keep in mind that the guns from an individual bomber do not converge, they fire in parallel to each other.  The net effect of all of this rather like that of a shot gun, making it easier to get hits but harder to get the focus of fire you see out of a P-47 or such.

[FLS]

Heh.  My experience in bombers says that if I wait until 500 yards one or more of my bombers has already been destroyed.

Also, keep in mind that the guns from an individual bomber do not converge, they fire in parallel to each other.  The net effect of all of this rather like that of a shot gun, making it easier to get hits but harder to get the focus of fire you see out of a P-47 or such.

My point remains that the convergence is game design not aircraft modeling.