Author Topic: Frame 02 Observation's  (Read 1729 times)

Offline Viper61

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Frame 02 Observation's
« on: May 17, 2014, 01:03:57 AM »
Allllllllll Righty then.  Frame 2 has come and gone and once again the ALLIES got TRASHED (That's Trashed with a capital "T").  Now some of you might remember my post entitled Frame 1 Observations in which I pointed out or tied to that the "SET-UP" needed not be tweaked but given a swift kick in the side.  The CM's choose not to make any adjustments and frame 2 played out like frame 1 but only worse.  Anyone surprised I'm not.  Now again I don't have any points to back up my claim of a ALLIED loss but the frame 2 logs tell a really clear story.  Look at the kills and assists.  Get this the ALLIED side had a grand total of 40 kills and only 19 assists over a 2 hour period!  I've never seen numbers that low.  Of those 40 AXIS planes how many were due to pilot error??  My point is that these numbers are really bad.  Changes are needed.

  Here are the problem areas:

      The AXIS lifted with about 50 more pilots than the ALLIED side - which was about 10 more than frame 1, WTG AXIS!!!  :rock
      The fuel burn rate at 1.5 hampers the ALLIES plane set for the YAK and I-16 which has been pointed out clearly in the Frame 1 posts by several of us.  :headscratch:

  If I were a CM here are the changes I would make for frame 3.  And remember at this point there is no way the ALLIES can win in points:

     Keep 3 targets each side
     Shift 15 AXIS pilots to the ALLIED side (1 - 3 squads dependent on size)
     Change the fuel burn rate from 1.5 to 1.0
     Eliminate the IL-2's from the ALLIED side and replace with more fighters

            And I'm sure a few of you reading this are going OMG the AXIS will lose the frame.  Probably not, and if they did it wont be by much.  But after getting wiped out in 2 frames the ALLIES could stand at least a chance to win 1 frame don't you think?

Remember game play and good rides = high turn out.  So it shouldn't be any wonder why the ALLIED side is having a lower than normal turn out.

So I ask:  What changes to the setup are planned for Frame 3?  My personnel observation:  If no significant changes are made going into frame 3 then I will assume that the plan all along was for the AXIS to win, there would be no other way to explain watching this scenario play out the way that it has for 2 weeks and the comments many have posted.  I'm the ALLIED CIC for frame 3 can't wait to see the orders I get to plan with.

Signed - A concerned cartoon citizen of the realm

Offline MachNix

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2014, 02:35:37 AM »
Viper,

I think you clearly understand what the situation is.  But one thing you may not be taking into consideration is the 120 Allied pilots that flew in frame 2 where there because they wanted to be there.  And I for one do not what to see any fat, M&M popping, diet Coke drinking, Axis pilot* shoehorned into an I-16 to "help" us poor Allies out of a jam.

If an overall victory is not possible, focus on wining a single objective by over-loading it at the expense of the others.  Or have the defenders do a Bonsai-charge directly at the Axis' operational bases.

You know what resources are available and have an idea of how to get the most out of them.  So lock that gloom-n-doom in your footlocker, sit down at that typewriter, and pound us out a set of orders that may not give us a victory but would at least make us smile.

You will have some of the most detected FSO pilots, who have an opportunity to show their metal, flying for you and they deserve to at least go down swinging.

I believe in you Viper.  You can do it!

MachNix

* Any similarity to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.   :)

Offline dogtag380

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2014, 10:10:29 AM »
   
     Shift 15 AXIS pilots to the ALLIED side (1 - 3 squads dependent on size)

     Change the fuel burn rate from 1.5 to 1.0

+1

Well said Viper.  I think both sides would find it more enjoyable if we enacted these changes.  

AKTap
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Offline Ratsy

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2014, 10:12:33 AM »
I understand your point of view, Viper.  I'm not sure I completely understand the Allied turnout for this FSO.  I think it has been pointed out before that the overall population of Aces High has been declining for a long time.

I question the assumption that FSO's are designed to be fair.  I have long believed the primary consideration for design was history-based.  If that is true, then FSO will never be fair and always stick each CiC with some tough planning decisions - and the usual constraints...attendance, good interpretation of orders, good execution of orders, amounts of beverage consumed per hour, etc.

Based on those variables we have seen the Japanese Navy win the battle of Midway, the Luftwaffe triumph at Kursk, and the 8th Air Force defeated during "Big Week". 

I've just finished reading two books by Luftwaffe aircrew serving on the eastern front.  After Stalingrad, German war fighters were on the run but the VVS and Soviet ground forces were still paying a large bill for the gains made.  So I was not surprised by the carnage inflicted last night and was impressed by the Allied plan and the squadrons who executed it.  The Arabian Knights stand out as a group who can make lemonade from lemons.

This is all just my opinion of course.  I respect your passion and concern, but I don't agree with mid-FSO tweaks.  It's a whipsaw where everybody perceives that they've been cut.  You make good points that should be considered now for the FSO's remaining this year.

 :salute
George "Ratsy" Preddy
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Died December 25th, 1944, Near Liege - Ardennes

Operating with the Arabian Knights - callsign AKRaider

Offline SlipKnt

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2014, 10:44:17 AM »
After reading everything from the observations for Frames 1 and 2...

I do agree with the fuel consumption part.  

1.  Maybe an adjustment to the burn rate should be made.
2.  May I also recommend that we lift the min / max restrictions to the ALLIED side only.  I believe this may help out with frame 3.

Quite frankly, I truly believed we were going to get wiped out last night.  We did the attack on V75.  We all took off with the attitude that this was either going to be REALLY bad or REALLY good.  Nothing in between was in the stars for us last night.  We ended up attacking with 3 really good squads last night (Anti-Horde, JG54, and The Unforgiven).  The comms were superior and I have to admit that through the last couple of years, comms between squads have gotten really good.  This was a strength for us last night.  After the initial attack, we left 1 fuel up.  We went back and got it.  We then flew to A8 to create a cut off for the V27 (?) egress knowing something had to be coming this way.  We ran into P40s.  Since we came as 4 squads, we had the numbers.  After helping to defend, we then went out towards V76 and discovered TUs.  We worked like heck to set up a cut off and eventually pushed them away from the 3 airbases we thought they would come to.  We were unable to catch them.  Man they are fast!  After all that, we decided to start de-acking all of the fields close by to create a vulch scenario.  Nobody came so we just kept attacking.  There were a lot of things at the end of the frame we destroyed that we will not get points for.  

My summary is this...  

We did gain superiority.  I do feel that if the Yaks and LAs that we encountered had more fuel time do to a different multiplier, this could have been a different turnout all together.  I would have been more fearful had we encountered more P39s or P40s.  We did have a REALLY good squad flying escort for us last night (The Unforgiven) and I already felt a little more aggressive knowing they had our cover.  However, I feel that by adjusting the burn rate and maybe changing the min/max for the Allies only may change the schematic for frame 3 a little better.  I am willing to bet that both sides would agree to this as a fair compromise.  

Any thoughts?

 :rock
SlipKnoT
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 10:47:55 AM by SlipKnt »
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Offline captain1ma

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2014, 11:29:12 AM »
After this month JG54 will be switching sides to ALLIES. we have decided that since there is less dedication to the the FSO from the allied squads, we will try to help take up the slack. maybe this will help with the uneven sides and encourage squads and players to be more dedicated to friday nights. We will be issuing lederhosen to all those who request them from us!  :D  short pants are better then no pants!

player numbers are based on squad commitment....if you commit to a certain number of players every week, either get them, get them to show up or change your commitment for the FSO. the CM team cannot be held responsible for those people that don't show on friday nights, on a weekly basis. that is the responsibility of the CO of the squad, and the squad members themselves. the months setup is based on those numbers, honor them, or change them. if people dont show, thats your(the squad CO or Squad members) fault not the CM teams.

my recommendations would be this:
CO's, get your guys in here or change your commitment. yes sometimes the sides are lopsided, but thats on you!
Fuel burn-- change it if you must....
change min/max for allied planes? yes if you must, but the spirit of the FSO is to work with what you have and what you are given.

Everyone wants the FSO to be fun, lets ALL help make it fun!!



Offline Big Rat

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2014, 12:16:16 PM »
After this month JG54 will be switching sides to ALLIES. we have decided that since there is less dedication to the the FSO from the allied squads, we will try to help take up the slack. maybe this will help with the uneven sides and encourage squads and players to be more dedicated to friday nights. We will be issuing lederhosen to all those who request them from us!  :D  short pants are better then no pants!

player numbers are based on squad commitment....if you commit to a certain number of players every week, either get them, get them to show up or change your commitment for the FSO. the CM team cannot be held responsible for those people that don't show on friday nights, on a weekly basis. that is the responsibility of the CO of the squad, and the squad members themselves. the months setup is based on those numbers, honor them, or change them. if people dont show, thats your(the squad CO or Squad members) fault not the CM teams.

my recommendations would be this:
CO's, get your guys in here or change your commitment. yes sometimes the sides are lopsided, but thats on you!
Fuel burn-- change it if you must....
change min/max for allied planes? yes if you must, but the spirit of the FSO is to work with what you have and what you are given.

Everyone wants the FSO to be fun, lets ALL help make it fun!!




I agree with jaeger here completely.  Yes I agree the fuel burn should be lowered to at least 1.25 if not 1 to balance this better.  But squad commitment is a big part of this, and this is the CO's job to make sure they have guys under them that are reliable, if not lower your numbers to a reliable number.  I know it's hard to make guys sit on the bench, but it's not fair to the guys who fly the crappy rides and crappy missions for them to sit out, as they made the commitment. 

I see no reason this shouldn't balance out fairly well if the fuel burn is lowered.  Yes the 109F is the superior fighter in this setup, but the Russians have the Boston and Tu-2 as superior bombers.  So please adjust the fuel burn for frame 3.  We are axis by the way, so you know I'm only asking this to better balance the setup.

Also depending on where you were fighting, would depend on how lopsided the sides were.  VF-17 was defending V42 by ourselves last night with 13 pirates, needless to say our Vbase got flattened.  As I believe we hit 2-3 squads of attackers.  Made for a target rich environment and some fun fights.  We pretty much had to give up on those Bostons as they nosed down after dropping.

 :salute
BigRat
 
When you think the fight might be going bad, it already has.
Becoming one with the Hog, is to become one with Greatness, VF-17 XO & training officer BigRat

Offline -ammo-

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2014, 12:20:57 PM »
I'm all for changing the fuel burn - it will benefit the Allied P-47D11 squads in the next mid-war Western Europe scenario :rock
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Offline Stampf

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2014, 02:36:40 PM »

Fuel was tight...



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Offline snakeplissken

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2014, 03:15:52 PM »
The Unforgiven was lucky enough to have a GOOD understanding of your GREAT battleplan..  There were some agressive pilots out there.  You couldn't get to the Yaks for all the Stukas and 110's chasing them!
The Unforgiven motto: Quid posset ire iniuriam

Offline Dantoo

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2014, 06:07:30 PM »

Quite frankly, I truly believed we were going to get wiped out last night.  We did the attack on V75.  We all took off with the attitude that this was either going to be REALLY bad or REALLY good.  Nothing in between was in the stars for us last night.  We ended up attacking with 3 really good squads last night (Anti-Horde, JG54, and The Unforgiven).  The comms were superior and I have to admit that through the last couple of years, comms between squads have gotten really good.  This was a strength for us last night.  After the initial attack, we left 1 fuel up.  We went back and got it.  We then flew to A8 to create a cut off for the V27 (?) egress knowing something had to be coming this way.  We ran into P40s.  Since we came as 4 squads, we had the numbers.  After helping to defend, we then went out towards V76 and discovered TUs.  We worked like heck to set up a cut off and eventually pushed them away from the 3 airbases we thought they would come to.  We were unable to catch them.  Man they are fast!  After all that, we decided to start de-acking all of the fields close by to create a vulch scenario.  Nobody came so we just kept attacking.  There were a lot of things at the end of the frame we destroyed that we will not get points for.  

My summary is this...  

We did gain superiority.  I do feel that if the Yaks and LAs that we encountered had more fuel time do to a different multiplier, this could have been a different turnout all together.  I would have been more fearful had we encountered more P39s or P40s.  We did have a REALLY good squad flying escort for us last night (The Unforgiven) and I already felt a little more aggressive knowing they had our cover.  However, I feel that by adjusting the burn rate and maybe changing the min/max for the Allies only may change the schematic for frame 3 a little better.  I am willing to bet that both sides would agree to this as a fair compromise.  

Any thoughts?

 :rock
SlipKnoT

V75 was expected and planned for but we were simply one squad a few comms short of one of perhaps the most glorious clashes FSO could throw up.

I had planned for a sweep followed by an influx of Ju87s covered by 110s.  Lacking numbers meant that I had to throw the LCA our largest squad in there to meet and break up the sweep.  If they had been able to have a large turnout that would have been sufficient. I really needed just another half dozen fighters to hold off the 110s.  The killer blow was the 20 Il2s that I had hovering east of V75 holding at 15k ready to plunge into the melee and take on the Ju87s and whatever was wheeling past their noses.  The thought of a few 110s and IL2s going head on brought some amusement and all.

All depended upon a call of a sighting of the incoming strike force and its makeup.  Throwing in the Il2s early meant they would get trapped underneath a high level attack.  Too late and they would never be able to have any impact.

Unfortunately the sweep appears to have overwhelmed our forward elements so no call came.  Once I saw the dar go down I committed them anyway.  The departure line was inside the radar ring for 135 on its western side.  If you look at a map, that's about 20 miles.  I can tell you it may as well have been 200. There was a single element I had not allowed for.  The (expletive deleted) wind setting!  Whilst the Il2 is slow, into a wind like that it becomes a joke.
It only took a few minutes but by the time we arrived over V75 there was only a single tree top 110 retreating and we were never going to catch him.  LCA had been taken out, the Vbase was smashed and we didn't have fuel or ord.
We rearmed and made a secondary attack.

Now comes the period which you describe.  The time of "nowhere to go".

Because of the absolutely ridiculous fuel setting and the huge disparity in force effectiveness it causes, we were even denied the use of our bases for safe landing let alone rearming.  This week the front was brought in closer.  Whilst this meant at least that a P39 with a bomb could just make a target and get home it also meant that the LW with their fuel and numbers could simply sit over our front bases.  They also sat over the bases behind them and even the next row of bases and deny us any opportunity to land safely let alone resortie.

Now if you get extra points for landing at a home base and that base cannot be accessed you get kind of a peeved feeling.  You can't fight, you can't land, you just end up flying pointlessly for an hour, rearm and run further.
As frustrating and boring as that is I actually felt sorrier for the guys on the other side who were so bored that they ended up deacking towns along the front just to get something to shoot at.
I gave this one my best shot at trying to make something of a setup that allows one side to fly and fight and not the other.  FSO doesn't allow you the luxury the preparation and practice to pull off the stuff I tried.  It becomes more of a lottery.

The squads that worked with me yesterday were absolutely wonderful.  No, seriously.  Not just saying that.  They worked and laughed and we had some real successes amongst the failures.  We blew away our targets to an extent you wouldn't credit and put up a worthy defence with what we had.  It was actually a pleasure leading.

Now if you don't want to do continuing damage to FSO numbers.

I have a suggestion:

Make fuel burn 1.00 or cancel next week.

I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

HiTech

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Offline Viper61

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2014, 08:00:22 AM »
Good post's guys one and all.

Dantoo's plan was solid for frame 2, as they always are.

Stampf great pictures!!!!  So of the 40 ALLIED kills there are two of them - ran out of fuel and not killed outright by enemy fire

Slippy - I can tell you that if the ALLIES didn't have the 20 IL-2's that it had to fly and if Dantoo's plan had 20 YAK's there instead the outcome at V75 would have been different.  You guys did a good job on V75 getting in and out quickly.  In fact I would say that your low alt egress out of V75 probably was faster than the high alt approach of the IL-2's coming in on you and you just out ran us.

Machnix - Appreciate the vote of confidence - I have the ALLIED frame 3 plan worked in 2 ways.  As of this posting the Objectives have yet to be provided to me, so I am hopeful that major changes are in process.  If the setup CM makes some significant changes than Plan A will be in effect.  If only limited changes or no changes result then Plan B goes into effect and I'm fairly confident we can win in points.  But there will be a lot of complaining after the frame from all 3 sides.  It wont be pretty  :salute 

Offline captain1ma

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2014, 08:58:48 AM »
you know, rearm pads at Vbases could solve a lot of the problems with fuel. just saying....

Offline SlipKnt

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2014, 09:42:19 AM »
you know, rearm pads at Vbases could solve a lot of the problems with fuel. just saying....

+1    :devil
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Offline Stampf

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Re: Frame 02 Observation's
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2014, 11:23:10 AM »

Quote
Stampf great pictures!!!!  So of the 40 ALLIED kills there are two of them - ran out of fuel and not killed outright by enemy fire

Ty Vipe.  I thought that was just a great pic.  Actually more than two.  I lost half a dozen or so to fuel shortage.  However I should point out that it was a result of a bad call I made after re-arm, more so than the fuel burn.

I know where Bino is coming from with his choice of fuel burn in this set up.  He is trying to emulate how difficult Eastern Front Operations often were, do to the vast expanses of Russia.  Good for him!  However...I agree with everyone else who is not digging it.  Game play and action level/potential must come first in my opinion.  Bino may be my mate but that is wholly separate from his role as a CM and I can influence him no more than the rest of you when it comes to FSO setups.

Let's hope the fuel burn is knocked back down for frame 3.

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