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[Gman]

Ack Ack is right, as great as an idea as Steam sounds so far as traffic and new customers, knowing their business policies makes it a non starter for an already established monthly sub MMO game.

How would it even be possible, with hundreds or even a few thousand existing clients, to add new ones and have only their 15$ per month subject to the 30% Steam wack they take monthly.  What if a customer found out about the game through Steam, but went to HTC's site and signed up with them the "old" way, as we all here have.  Steam would foresee this, and insist on every customer resigning through their system, which to them would prevent any of the above happening, but to HTC would be massively unfair as the customers they currently have they've kept through their perseverance over the years and such.  It's a lose lose sort of deal IMO, with HTC standing to be the greater "lose" of the prospect.

I guess the counter argument would be could Steam add so many new customers that losing 30% or whatever was decided to Steam be less than the amount of new revenue, but it would be a huge, huge risk.  If for example there is 3000 clients now, at least 1000 new ones would have to be added just to hit the break even point with Steam at 30%.  

Could it work?  Who knows, HTC and probably AckAck would have the best feel for that question.  I maintain that there are swarms and swarms of players wasting time playing an inferior game (WT), and if even 10% of those customers, heh, maybe even 1%, would probably double the numbers on a given night.  It's just a matter of getting the word out to them, as IMO there is probably 1 in 10, or 1 in 100 at least who would try out AH and find it to be more of what they've been looking for.  Several reputable online gaming magazines have stated that WT has attracted over 5 million players who have tried it, and several claim 1 million gamers were playing regularly for over a couple months time.  All that in under a year of being live.  It CAN be done, and it can be done here, but as I've repeatedly been saying, this type of environment here at HTC, the competitive nature and difficulty of the game, attracts a certain type of person and player.  Well, within those hundreds of thousands, or millions depending on how you look at the data over at WT, I'm virtually certain there is a few thousand potential long term clients that would prefer AH.  Again, that would probably double our nightly numbers now, and then some, which would be a happy state of affairs for all involved.  I live in hope.

[bustr]

That's a point well said, however it exists in a world we don't live in here.

I said it 15 years ago when I first wrote about AH in the Simhq type community, and have continued to say it with recent posts here and at SimHQ - it takes a different sort of person and client to appreciate this sort of game.  Many people don't like a competitive environment, for the very reason that it attracts that certain type of person.  I'm not saying everyone in AH is that type of person, but it does attract that competitive and sometimes almost antisocial type of player, where as that type of person isn't really satisfied with the single player, or limited small number multiplayer environment that is catered to with the IL2/DCS/F4 type games that most SimHQ players prefer. 

People enjoy being comfortable in their niche, something that will get dumped on its head when you join the AH community, as there is always somebody better, and is the case for newcomers, very often somebody better. 

IMO this sort of aggressive, competitive environment shows its colors on the bbs systems.  SimHQ folks are NOT used to the type of community interaction there is here.  Don't get me wrong, in their off topic area at the bottom of their BBS, they have their own problem children, and Rick.50cal, one of the long time mods there, I've known since the 90's from combatsim and Simhq, a fellow Canadian.  I'm sure his story is similar to Skuzzy's, although in a much, much smaller book.

I guess a good example I can use to describe this is other games.  Falcon 4, DCS, all the piles of other games and helo sims over the years have had their own little communities, but they've always gotten along reasonably well over at SimHQ in their bbs sytem.  AH, WB, AW, games such as these have tighter and more vocal communities, and have never, ever, had a "second home" so to speak over there.  I know  many would think it's a perfect place for AH to pick up new customers, but as I've said, it really isn't, I'm sure HT would agree too - the majority of the gamers there just aren't the type of person who thrives, or even enjoys the type of competitive environment that exists here, and few if any other places so far as online sim games go.  I'm sure a review there of the new version wouldn't hurt, but it certainly isn't going to add hundreds, or even dozens, or even A dozen (imo) new customers to the ranks here.

Aces High competitive......

I've always thought of being towered as the nuisance price you pay to be with your friends and have fun every night. But, competitive, like winning something with an audience and you have a permanent record for the public to remind you of your failures associated with your real world name. Online poker and chess are more competitive than any flight game. You have no place or mechanism by which to hide your lack of skill. You cannot develop the skill of running away in either game to avoid the inevitable. Golf is even more competitive than AH once you have "one" playing partner to witness your abilities, or lack of for 18 holes.

One thing we do wrong with spreading the word of AH, is de-emphasis the strength of groups in our game to protecting delicate sensibilities from the ravages of being towered. After all of these years, a natural mentoring process established itself in which we have all watched some of our hottest sticks start out green noobs. And in a few years become amazing ACM practitioners. We hold this as the "ideal" even if the norm is, along side of them other noobs flourished into strong squad members making their squads better for the mentoring.

Our normal day to day play is not all that different from other games. Groups of generally talented individuals playing together as loose teams. Our ideal gets in the way when we try to communicate that our game is fun and friendly for everyone. If I were a member of another forum where Aces High gets brought up and changeup dropped in to defend AH. Would I believe his words about "The Game", or the smoke and flames leaking out of his ears while he finished by challenged everyone to a raw meat eating contest?

Our problem with Aces High is the imagery right or wrong perceived about it now. Nothing a rebranding and some new advertisement won't fix along with a new look. Other wise we are stuck with a public opinion similar to, we are trying to sell swimsuits to fat women by telling them they will look fatter. While the truth of our game is a universe better than that, which always seems to be over shadowed by the "ideal" and challenges to raw meat eating contests. 

[Butcher]

I don't blame HTC for not going on Steam, they probably figure giving Steam 30% of each financial transaction wasn't worth it. 

ack-ack

I didn't realize it was 30%, I had a feeling there was something that prevented Aces High from going to steam. Honestly with my business, I would hate to lose 30% as well, in fact I would severely fold up if that happened.

[Zerstorer]

We're not Neanderthals?

But when Hitech implements new graphics I was going to post an invitation on SimHQ to check them out.  Here is my draft:

***
Yo doods, listen up! We got new graphics at Aces High.
You better check them out or I'll kick your arse!
If you think another game has better graphics we'll have a dogfight to decide...
***

Surely an intellectual approach will win them over

 

While very funny... I'm sure somebody would consider making a post like this.... And that doesn't help the game attract new players.

This isn't about a competitive environment... I am as competitive as they come... Maybe too much so. What I've been referring to is a respectful environment.... Which is something our community at times lacks. You can be competitive and not be a jerk..... Sorry guys, but some here don't understand that simple truism.

[Zerstorer]

Maybe it would be better to say "Be competitive without coming across as a jerk" since I honestly don't think many in our community are actual ones.

[Gman]

Our problem with Aces High is the imagery right or wrong perceived about it now. Nothing a rebranding and some new advertisement won't fix along with a new look. Other wise we are stuck with a public opinion similar to, we are trying to sell swimsuits to fat women by telling them they will look fatter. While the truth of our game is a universe better than that, which always seems to be over shadowed by the "ideal" and challenges to raw meat eating contests.  

If I understand you post correctly, you're saying that the big problem with AH and getting new clients is how it is perceived, I'm assuming based on your other posts, directly from BBS posts here, at other sites like SimHQ, and our own ch 200 experience.

The problem with your premise is that AH isn't perceived AT ALL by 99 percent of the gamers who are flying online, be it with WT, IL2, F4, DCS, or whatever.  They either haven't heard of it, or have heard of it long ago, and just don't care, as it isn't their thing, being in an MMO environment where most players are going to be better than they are in the beginning, or that it isn't a "complex" enough of a "study sim" for them.  Most of it is the former, AH is something they don't know about.  I bet if you were to poll the million players at WT, an extremely high percentage, as in 90 percent or higher wouldn't have even HEARD about Aces High.  All of this concern about how AH is being perceived in game and on the BBS is irrelevant, because extremely few people have been told about it.  I'm sure HTC has the numbers for unique hosts to the bbs, as well as 2 weekers in the game - where are all these newcomers that are being turned off currently?

You're right though, a new look, new game, and such is bringing about the time to strike, IMO at least, however doing so should be done on the strength of the actual GAME, not the community and bbs surrounding it.  And, you're right, the best foot forward is the way to go so far as posting about AH at any site that happens to review the new version.  Again though, most potential new players will check something out based on the strength of the game itself, and not much else at first.  Over time perhaps the community will become more important, but that initial contact - it's all about how good the actual playing experience is. There are many games I like to play, and couldn't care less about what goes on in their BBS or their version of ch 200, if that's what you're getting at.  The community at Eve and Star Citizen is pretty bonkers, yet I've invested hundreds and thousands into them because I like the game, and the potential for the future of such.

The game the game the game.  And IMO it'll be good, and the game itself should be what's pushed in terms of advertising for new clients.

[bustr]

It's about how you introduce people to eating raw meat rather than if raw meat tastes bad or good. Our community often goes from trying to sell the goodness of Carpaccio, right to, you suck as a man because you are too sissy to accept my Carpaccio eating challenge. And many of those turned off by the whole encounter had never known Carpaccio was another word for raw meat. Let alone who or what Aces High even is.

In the end, we literally are our own worst enemy about how we greet and keep new players.

Japanese anime weekly series parody this with high school and college clubs and their recruiting drives. Some club will be showcased with muscle bound macho aggressive nutz advocating judo or car racing. They will be on the school's disbanding list due to low numbers. So every time someone stops at their booth asking directions to the bathroom. He gets kidnapped into the dojo for a fire breathing throw down, or stuffed into a car and forced to drive a death race. End result is using the disconnect between how the club members view normal inside the closed environment they love, and how the poor fool looking for directions to the bathroom spends the next hour in sheer terror. Then the hero of the series shows up to be a natural prodigy in a unique environment to keep the series going week after week.

Here in our game the parallel is all the 2 weekers who quit to the one Latrobe who stays. Unlike with the anime series, HTC doesn't have sponsors making up the difference while the nutz drive away potential new club members.   

[68Raptor]

Snip
Here in our game the parallel is all the 2 weekers who quit to the one Latrobe who stays. Unlike with the anime series, HTC doesn't have sponsors making up the difference while the nutz drive away potential new club members.   
Snip

The question is how does the culture change in game then? Knowing that only a few of the players in game actually read the boards with any sort of regularity. Even fewer still come to the boards for more then general information about the game beyond a "how do I do this...."

Given there are so few here that read the boards, some of which are much more caustic here then they are in game, how does a very small minority begin changing the culture of a large mass? I'm not posing this question with a defeatist outlook rather a honest question given my lack of knowledge in this matter.   

[Gman]

In the end, we literally are our own worst enemy about how we greet and keep new players.

This has some validity to it, to be sure, however greeting and keeping new players is a completely different thing from initially getting that new player to come try out the game.  Their experience so far as "community" is out of HTC's hands for the most part, hence it being called "the community", however what IS in HTC's hands is the experience so far as actual gameplay, and the strength of the game itself.  HTC is also greatly in control of the strategy so far as advertising and marketing to GET that first contact with a new potential client.  New players have to actually tune into 200, so most will likely not even see the nonsense that can go on there in there first few times trying out the game, and seeing if they like it, same goes with the BBS, HTC has even said an extremely low number of clients even use the bbs system to begin with.  Worrying about 200/bbs so far as keeping new customers isn't as much of an issue as you think it is because of these facts - over time, yes the community will become more of an issue IMO, but for the first while a new player will be around, they'll be too busy with the game itself to get too wrapped up into the community issues.  

I for one don't think there are droves of 2 weekers driven off due to some competitive "nut" as you put it, nor is there droves of 2 weekers driven off because of a bad word or political discussion with a lock on it on the bbs.  Like I said, HTC has said very few regular customers even use the bbs, so how many of the 2 weekers would be regular readers to even SEE something that would be so earth shatteringly bad that it would make them leave based on this reason alone.  Unlikely.  I'm sure it has happened, but I somehow doubt it being as frequent a problem as you are making it out to be.  In fact, try and round up a dozen posts that say "hi, I'm a new player just trying this game out, and player "xyz" was mean to me, so efff all of you guys, I quit".  I've never seen ONE where the given reason was some player "driving" them off, much less many.  I've seen some long time players complain about others (the Badboy whoever incidents come to mind), and use being bullied in the TA as a reason for their departure, but that is NOT a new player - HT has made his feelings clear about long term players and their value compared to potential new clients, so I'm sure they don't see old hands whining about bullying and using that as their excuse for leaving as much of an issue.

If anything, I would say the help and training sections here are exemplary of what the community can be like when it chooses so.  Reading through it, and seeing new players, and even longer term players ask for help, in virtually every case, the knowledgeable guys come out of the woodwork and bend over backwards to offer advice, time in the training arena, etc.  Unlike many other online games, I've rarely seen answers of "rtfm noob, or maybe you just suck noob" and other typical Counterstrike type responses.  Again, try and find some examples of that, and I'll answer with 100x as many in the same time frame of guys giving helpful and polite advice.

I've read here many came from the TV adds on the Military channel (almost all US based only, as many other countries didn't really see these commercials).  Some came from word of mouth (Soulyss told me about the AH beta back in 99 while talking about Warbirds in a FPS game).  Some have family or friends that tell them.  All avenues are effective to some extent, but obviously there are some mediums which are vastly more effective.  HTC based on their polling, sampling, and other data probably know what has been most effective for them, and will likely go this route in the future I would wager.  Again, with millions of people trying and flying that WT game, getting a few thousand new clients shouldn't be inventing fire or anything. I'm hoping that the new version will appeal to both newer players who demand graphics to fit their gaming systems capabilities, and long term players who are here for the other things that make the game great.  I'm on the record though for saying that a new review on sites like SimHQ and the like will do very little in the way of bringing in new players, as 99 percent of their traffic is NOT new players or even the types of players that like MMO games like this.  HTC advertised with Combatsim.com back when we had 1 million unique hosts per month, 40 million hits, and several terabytes of data transferred a month.  I'm sure he could give the numbers for the number of click throughs that came through his adds, and the numbers of players that singed up for 2 week trials, as well as the numbers that actually contributed $.  Knowing what the numbers were on our end, I don't think HTC was overwhelmed with the success of advertising on such sites.  Like I've said, it can't hurt, and putting our best foot forward (the community) when posting in the forums at such sites is the best policy, I agree.  It just won't make much difference #'s wise.  Again, I'm sure HTC knows how and where to best strike, and I'm looking forward to seeing success and a big up arrow when that time comes.

[Kodiak]

I for one don't think there are droves of 2 weekers driven off due to some competitive "nut" as you put it, nor is there droves of 2 weekers driven off because of a bad word or political discussion with a lock on it on the bbs.  Like I said, HTC has said very few regular customers even use the bbs, so how many of the 2 weekers would be regular readers to even SEE something that would be so earth shatteringly bad that it would make them leave based on this reason alone.  Unlikely.  I'm sure it has happened, but I somehow doubt it being as frequent a problem as you are making it out to be.  In fact, try and round up a dozen posts that say "hi, I'm a new player just trying this game out, and player "xyz" was mean to me, so efff all of you guys, I quit".  I've never seen ONE where the given reason was some player "driving" them off, much less many.

When I came back to AH in April this year I used a new in-game name and so I was effectively a noob again.  I couldn't believe it...almost every night I had someone (different players) raging at me calling me a spy on range.  I had no squad and so was suspect I guess.  I was determined to come back, but for about 2 months I got the rage treatment often once or twice a night.  I finally tried out for a squad and it quit while flying with them but still went on when I wasn't, so I started a squad primarily to get a squad tag on my name.  I guess no squad + unknown player = SPY and not a noob now days.  And folks hate spies.

Point is, I wasn't a noob and just let it roll off my back, but if I had been a noob I would have quit for sure, probably within a night or two.  It was eye opening.  Now, I also met some very nice folks who let me fly with them, but one or two rage treatments a night from your own countrymen to boot would drive many noobs off, I would think.

So its going on, Gman...big time.  I didn't experience this my first time around when I started playing AH in Jan 2013 so things have changed since then.

[Gman]

I don't doubt you, however it may be people have different experiences based on what they are doing in the MA.

Examples - I've flown very, very infrequently with my account in the last few years.  Around Xmas this last year, I flew with several different ID's, at least 2 of which were completely unknown, probably 3 of of which were.  I had stats based on what I was trying that normally would get a TON of nasty PM's and such - top 20 in the game with kills/time, accuracy ratings, etc, all never once climbing over 10k.  I never got a single PM, not one, and maybe had one time max where anyone even made a comment about me, in about 30 hours of flying or so, which is around what a new player would put in.  HT could easily check those accounts and verify what I'm saying, again, not one single incoming PM or anything nasty as you're describing.  

 I didn't experience this my first time around when I started playing AH in Jan 2013 so things have changed since then.

Nothing really changes around here, what changed in your experience was YOU, not the MA or the game.  You see, the first time you were a 2 weeker inexperienced player, and other than the old alt F4 thing, the majority of players don't grief them, and try to help them.  This time around you knew all about the game, and weren't a new 2 week player at all.

I have a hard time believing some 2 weeker that can barely get off the ground, much less get up to much of anything productive in the air at first is going to be bombarded with "spies" accusations, and even if in the unlikely event that they were, they aren't going to know what "spies" are in the game, or what anyone is referring to.  "Where is the guns button, how do I take off, where is the war at?" - hah, we've found you, a spy!  Seems a little odd.  You see, your experience is going to be completely different than a 2 weeker as you're already very familiar with the game and how things work - I COULD almost see somebody being accused of playing coy, when claiming to be a 2 weeker or newcomer, yet having obvious past experience, which can be seen through observation and stats as well. That's different than a legit 2 weeker being abused though, that's pretty much asking for grief. 

How much of the flak you took came on channel 200?  How much came via PMs?  As I said, 200 has to be tuned by the new player, and PM's they have no control over.  A simple solution to what happened in your case would be to eliminate 200 for new players during their 2 week stay for a start, as well as incoming PMs from anyone but a trainer or squadmate.  Just my opinion, IF it's as bad overall as it was for you, which again, I'm far from certain based on my own "coming back", as like I said, I'd barely flown, some months not even logging in, prior to returning to set goals to see if I could get myself back into it, using 3 different ID's in game.

[The Fugitive]

Well GMAN, he did say he was accused by "his own countrymen" and those are the people that WOULD accuse you of being a spy. Kinda tough to be called a spy by the enemy, unless you switched teams, which would would again mean they are your countrymen.

There are players whos sole purpose in life is to annoy other players. There are a couple I would have muted last night just for their relentless harping on other players. Again there was the religion and politics flying across 200 which ALWAYS gets heated up. Then there is the frustrating game play of either being stuck fighting the horde, or being IN the horde try to find a fight. Add that to trying to figure out HOW to play the game and you can certainly see why new players don't stay, and even players who have been here a few months just give up and leave.

Whats the solution? I don't know. Maybe the "sandbox" idea is no longer a viable way to go. Most of these other MMO's seem to have a lot more structure as in only X number of players, a timed match an so on. I'm not saying that is what is needed here but a new structure might be needed. If we have a "war raging 24/7" maybe that war should have more direction with better goals set out. Instead of "win the war" maybe setting goals for certain "battles" and win the battle! More monitoring to have a more "civil" playground. Much like the recent "cleaning house" that happened on the BBS maybe it's time they put their foot down and lay down the law in the MA. They split the arenas once for the good of the community life, to stop it from turning into a cesspool, because having too many people in one arena wasn't good for the new player. Maybe it's time for something new again.

They need to find a way to get more people to try out the game and the Youtube videos as well as player videos help. A presence on Facebook.... as long as it is active, will help as well. I think some form of advertising is going to be a must too. Finescale Modeler caters to a large group of WWII fans. Taking out an add in that publication has got to be cheaper than a TV spot but could hit a very well targeted group.

Then once they have them here they need to keep them. Cleaning up the MA of "bullies", adding a bit of structure with more goals to give those easily bored something else to go for. It also gives the new guys options. And add something to put help up in front of a new players face! Like most "guys" they don't "need" help nor will they ask for it, but give them a way to find it EASILY and they will use it.... well the smart ones will 

[Gman]

And again, 200 is something you HAVE TO TUNE yourself.  It's free will, nobody is forcing you to listen to, or even SEE what you're complaining about.  New players, 2 weekers, have to actually figure out that there IS a 200, and tune to it.  So far as being accused of being a spy on green country channel, see what I said above - a new player is obvious by new player type questions, somebody coming back to the game after knowing how to play it, and knowing all of the ins and outs of the politics and problems, yet plays it off like they are a "new" player - then complains that people call him a spy?  Uh huh.  I'd love to HT to show the logs of this player, and show precisely what went on so far as how that whole " I was griefed and called a spy constantly" came about.  I have 2 friends, both new to online gaming (pilots) that joined AH for a while last year, and they had no complaints about being constantly accused of spying, or any grief at all.  You get what you put in for the most part, like everywhere else.

Again, all the whining about poor sports, no fights, and some systemic group of bad eggs -  it's mostly on a channel you can just NOT TUNE in the first place.

Cleaning house in the MA, like you said happened on the bbs - what, wasn't it about a grand total of 4 people, maybe 5 that got PNG'd, half of whom still fly in the MA and have never been problem children in there - Have you ever seen Grizz start anything on 200, or more importantly grief a 2 weeker?  I doubt it.  I do agree that some guys seem to fly just to be problem children on 200, and again, all one needs to do is de-tune 200, and bye bye problem child.  I also agree more moderators on 200 could have an effect, however I would counter that if a player sees something so awful there that they just can't handle it, detuning would have a better effect.  

IMO a good test run to see if what is being claimed is such a huge problem actually IS, would be to remove 200 and the ability to PM anyone but teamates from the game for a couple weeks.  See what the fallout is from that.  Would there be even MORE complaints, or would it stimulate the kinder, gentler AH that you seem to yearn for Fugitive?  I'd be interested to see myself.

What goes on in the MA is no different than what happens in every other online game, even every other MMO game.  EVE, WT, WoT, CS, BF, all of them have the same environment, negative and positive, that exists in AH.  You think people complain about "hordes" here?  Ever heard of Goonswarm, gate camping, and all the other problems at Eve?  Google it, they have their own wikipedia for gods sake.  What you are worked up about here at AH pales in comparison to the problems in other games.  Yet new players still join and stay in those games, and they have all experienced huge growth, where as AH has not.  Trying to pass off that lack of growth by saying that the environment in the MA or even the BBS has been SO negatively affected by the problems you describe Fugi to cause it, the same problems that every other game out there has (complaints and problem children), flies like a lead balloon, and no, not the one on Mythbusters.

[FLOOB]

Gman is right. It is not the attitude of the players that has caused the people to not know about Aces High.

I have spoken.

[Changeup]

It's about how you introduce people to eating raw meat rather than if raw meat tastes bad or good. Our community often goes from trying to sell the goodness of Carpaccio, right to, you suck as a man because you are too sissy to accept my Carpaccio eating challenge. And many of those turned off by the whole encounter had never known Carpaccio was another word for raw meat. Let alone who or what Aces High even is.

In the end, we literally are our own worst enemy about how we greet and keep new players.

Japanese anime weekly series parody this with high school and college clubs and their recruiting drives. Some club will be showcased with muscle bound macho aggressive nutz advocating judo or car racing. They will be on the school's disbanding list due to low numbers. So every time someone stops at their booth asking directions to the bathroom. He gets kidnapped into the dojo for a fire breathing throw down, or stuffed into a car and forced to drive a death race. End result is using the disconnect between how the club members view normal inside the closed environment they love, and how the poor fool looking for directions to the bathroom spends the next hour in sheer terror. Then the hero of the series shows up to be a natural prodigy in a unique environment to keep the series going week after week.

Here in our game the parallel is all the 2 weekers who quit to the one Latrobe who stays. Unlike with the anime series, HTC doesn't have sponsors making up the difference while the nutz drive away potential new club members.  

Speculation is a dangerous marketing tactic and clearly you are speculating.  There may be just as many players who STAY because of the competitive "nutz".  One of the worst forms of management of ANY kind is "I, therefore, you".  Just because one person hates something doesn't mean everyone does.  I truly have never had an issue with anyone's method of playing this game.  I PREFER to have fights but I like the baserollers, squad horders, furballers and even the "selective extenders".  It doesn't matter what category they classify themselves...

Aces High, by virtue of its design, always unmasks the skilled vs. the unskilled and score is not a measure of either.  Have fun...doing it your way just be very careful of claiming uberness because we already know whether you are...or whether you are not.