Author Topic: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol  (Read 3329 times)

Offline Gman

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #135 on: July 10, 2014, 05:29:52 PM »
Dr Fackler's chart, recognize it anywhere.  

What you fail to state is the range that data is taken from.  Can you answer that?

Of course 556 can fragment vs soft tissue strikes at close range.  There is a great table and a ton of valid confirmed info over at ar15.com regarding all the different Marks of 556 rounds from Mk262 right on down to 55gr stuff, even lighter.  It's all been tested with various velocities and barrel length, which has a huge effect on the velocity of the round.  Twist rates, manufacturer of the ammunition, there are many factors at play, but the bottom line is velocity regarding fragmentation, and the range it can be achieved.  You won't find many rounds outside of the highest velocity 77 grain bullets moving at 3000fps or so out of a barrel at least 20" long that will fragment at anything greater than 150 yards.  Most common lengths like  16"(civilian non class whatever in the USA) are around 100 yards for any type of ammo in 556.

For 14.5 and 10.5 and such length SBR's, 75 then 60 yards is the typical range one can expect at least some reliable fragmentation.  

So, velocity and range are the primary factors regarding lethality in the fragmentation conversation around 556, and it isn't predictable 100% as I've stated.  Ranges past 100 with typical NATO ammo and barrel lengths = fragmentation less likely.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 05:33:21 PM by Gman »

Offline DaveBB

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #136 on: July 10, 2014, 05:43:23 PM »
I specifically stated the M-16.  Not the M-4, not an AR-15.  Lethal fragmentation occurs slightly past 100 yards with the standard 20" barrel.  As I stated before, it is a function of velocity.  The mass of the 5.56mm x 45mm round is in the rear, causing the extreme yaw and G-forces on it when entering soft tissue.

Don't try to drag this off topic with some crazy AR-15 load or low velocity M-4.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #137 on: July 10, 2014, 06:24:23 PM »
I missed that part of your posts were you said 100m and the M16 during Vietnam specifically, I just read the posts after it, my bad, we're in agreement obviously.  The mass of almost every rifle round is in the rear, and the yaw and flight path destabilization which you're talking about that puts the increased torque and forces on the round causing it to begin to fragment and break apart are directly related to the velocity and cavitation forces caused by the hydrostatic shock - again, I think we're in complete agreement.

History (ie the Vietnam war) is one thing, the rounds today - completely different even with a 20" barrel rifle, and completely different even 20 years ago with the common ammo in use then.  M855/SS109 ammo with the internal AP hardened penetrater is a heavier 62 gr round designed to penetrate light barriers more than previous rounds like the M193 which will fragment more easily and often and similar ranges.  The 77 gr bullets in common military use now with certain rifles behave differently yet again, with entirely different terminal effects and possible fragmentation data numbers.

Again, regarding the original M16 and the typical ammunition used when it was first introduced until years later, I'm in complete agreement with the ~100 yards and closer fragmentation data.

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #138 on: July 10, 2014, 08:51:57 PM »
Hmmmm, I always thought the 3 round burst was cause nobody could hit a dang thing spraying the rifle. I know I couldnt on full auto, tho I had enough sense to fire short bursts. But I'll never forget when they lined us up on targets about 25 yards away and told us to burn thru the 30 rnd mag anyway we wanted. Well a bunch of John Waynes let em rip, all 30, and not one of us boneheads hit a target. :lol



when I joined the marines in 89 one of the drill instructions told us that the change to the 3 round burst was because during vietnam too many people would just lift their rifles over the head while hiding and shoot full auto.  the 3 round burst was supposed to force people to actually aim.

they showed us a movie of several soldiers lining up their magazines next to them then fire full auto one after the other without really aiming at anything.


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Offline danny76

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #139 on: July 11, 2014, 01:56:44 AM »

Danny76, the 3 round burst came about exactly like I said.  Source: "Dirty Little Secrets of the Vietnam War" by James F. Dunnigan, Albert A. Nofi.  They cite the study in the book.



I understood that this study concluded that "three-shot groups provide an optimum combination of ammunition conservation, accuracy and firepower" and also led to development and testing of the "duplex" round for use in combat rifles during the Army's ACR competition in the '90'

The H+K G11 specifically cited it's 3 round burst function, stating the third round would have left the barrel by the time the recoil had caused significant effect on accuracy, and simply gave a spread of rounds better ensuring a first shot hit.

I was unaware that there was any reasoning as to the number of rounds required to kill the enemy, which at best is vague, and has too many contributing factors to be pared down to the difference between one and 3 rounds.

How far away was the enemy? was he behind cover? was he wearing body armour? did his equipment contribute to either causing greater injury? (e.g grenade detonation), or offering protection (cigarette case from wife over heart chestnut) where were the bullet strikes? was he in a vehicle? what were the weather conditions? did the wounded soldier have access to immediate first aid.

Of course, if you can get 2 or 3 rounds onto target, you stand a better chance of putting the guy down than with just one hit, or with no hits in the case of full auto spraying, but I would suggest that was the point I was making in my previous post :salute
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #140 on: July 11, 2014, 04:29:43 AM »
Rich, you said if a bullet doesn't hit something, it doesn't break apart?  I just told you exactly how the 5.56mm breaks apart in soft tissue.  

(Image removed from quote.)


Dave I know what happens with a 20" 1 in 12 barrel and 55 grn bullets at shorter ranges, which is why I carry it. But isnt the standard issue a M4 with a 14" barrel and a 62 grn NATO round out of a 1 in 7 twist? And have there not been issues with the round NOT busting up unless it hits something?

Again Im no expert with the thing but feel free to correct me if Im wrong. I lug around a 20" barrel for the same reason all my hunting rifles are 28" barrels. Im a believer in higher velocity's.

OK, sorry but I just read the entire thread and G-man has already said, essentially, what I said. Again its by no mistake I carry a Vietnam era barrel with a Vietnam era load.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 04:32:14 AM by Rich46yo »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #141 on: July 11, 2014, 10:05:00 AM »
Dave I know what happens with a 20" 1 in 12 barrel and 55 grn bullets at shorter ranges, which is why I carry it. But isnt the standard issue a M4 with a 14" barrel and a 62 grn NATO round out of a 1 in 7 twist? And have there not been issues with the round NOT busting up unless it hits something?

Presumably the higher the gradient of rifling the greater the reduction of muzzle velocity?

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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #142 on: July 11, 2014, 10:15:00 AM »
Dave I know what happens with a 20" 1 in 12 barrel and 55 grn bullets at shorter ranges, which is why I carry it. But isnt the standard issue a M4 with a 14" barrel and a 62 grn NATO round out of a 1 in 7 twist? And have there not been issues with the round NOT busting up unless it hits something?

The standard M4 barrel is 14.5". Effective fragmentation range of M855 ball (65gr penetrator green-tip) ammo is ~150 yards. The issue is the round's velocity combined with the range that the round enters the target. Under 100yds, the round will reliably fragment. Between 100-200yds is where the velocity drops to a point where fragmentation is not reliable. Past 200yds, the round usually loses enough velocity that hits on soft targets are clean-through.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #143 on: July 11, 2014, 03:06:14 PM »
Presumably the higher the gradient of rifling the greater the reduction of muzzle velocity?



Different twist rates, or rifling, stabilizes different size and weight bullets better. When NATO went to the heavier bullet they made the twist rate faster, to 1 in 7 I believe, to stabilize the bullets better for long range accuracy. Tho I would hazard a guess you right in that a better stabilized bullet will have better velocity. For sure it will be more accurate and retain more energy.

But velocity is more dependent on powder charge and type, length of barrel, and type of projectile and weight.

The handloader whittles the perfect combination of load to rifle down to a single grain of powder, the perfect seat of bullet and primer, the perfect bullet for the particular barrel, seated in case lots weighed and trimmed to be clones of each other. Down to minutia, all looking for that perfect group in that individual rifle.


Man this old timer can tag silhouette center all day long at 300 yrds with this baby.


I wonder if the youngins with all their fancy doo-dads on their M4s can say the same? :D
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #144 on: July 11, 2014, 03:19:58 PM »
Nice, Rich! Good shooting!

I don't have any photos of targets on this computer to show, but she'll do about a 3-4" group at 500yds. 16" stainless 1/7 barrel, Geissele SD-E trigger, Navy contract-overrun Nightforce 2.5-10x24 scope.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 03:56:58 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #145 on: July 11, 2014, 03:32:31 PM »
Congrats on a very fine rifle. :salute
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #146 on: July 12, 2014, 12:10:12 AM »
Fine shooting Rich. I love the cleanness of your rifle.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Time to say goodbye to the M9 9mm pistol
« Reply #147 on: July 12, 2014, 09:07:47 AM »
Fine shooting Rich. I love the cleanness of your rifle.

Thanks but bench shooting reflects more the accuracy of the rifle/load then it does the shooter. I can take my game cleanly but am not a great rifle shooter.
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