to ho or not to ho

[caldera]

I might HO if:

- You tried to HO me

- You are in a 262

- You are ganging me

- We end up slow, facing each other on the deck and experience tells me that 99% of players will HO if I "gentlemanly" pass by.

[DmonSlyr]

I might HO if:


- You are in a 262


- We end up slow, facing each other on the deck and experience tells me that 99% of players will HO if I "gentlemanly" pass by.

-262s are the exception.

- You can still avoid HOs low and slow in a turn fight on the deck. Push that nose down and wiggle the ailerons, try to get to the left or right and get under their nose. Then when they are about to shoot, pull up and attempt doing  a loop. You will win the fight if you can loop and cut an angle.

God I wish I knew how to post videos so I could show yall some examples.

[caldera]

-262s are the exception.

- You can still avoid HOs low and slow in a turn fight on the deck. Push that nose down and wiggle the ailerons, try to get to the left or right and get under their nose. Then when they are about to shoot, pull up and attempt doing  a loop. You will win the fight if you can loop and cut an angle.

God I wish I knew how to post videos so I could show yall some examples.

Low and slow, meaning slow enough that he can point his nose at you and you can't evade.  Hard to push the nose down when you are already in between the trees. 


Here is a link to a film that demonstrates:

http://www19.zippyshare.com/v/95850306/file.html



The setup for the shot occurs @ the 6:30 mark.  The actual fight starts at 2:30 if interested.  With the way he was pulling hard, there was no reason for me not to fire a pre-emptive HO shot.  Notice he didn't so easily avoid it by doing what you suggest.  This pretty much explains what I'm referring to.


Airspeed for both planes is 130-135:

[DmonSlyr]

Low and slow, meaning slow enough that he can point his nose at you and you can't evade.  Hard to push the nose down when you are already in between the trees. 


Here is a link to a film that demonstrates:

http://www19.zippyshare.com/v/95850306/file.html



The setup for the shot occurs @ the 6:30 mark.  The actual fight starts at 2:30 if interested.  With the way he was pulling hard, there was no reason for me not to fire a pre-emptive HO shot.  Notice he didn't so easily avoid it by doing what you suggest.  This pretty much explains what I'm referring to.

I'll be home from work in about 30-45 min. I'll check it out.

I'm also going to attempt to upload a film, but I can't make any promises. 

[The Fugitive]

Any shot is fine, including head on's.

Keep in mind that people who complain about head on's are all fine with head on's that they take against bombers or Storches.  Do bombers or Storches have better ability than fighters to defend themselves from the front or to evade head-on shots?  No.

People who complain about head on's include people who aren't thinking of history (where head on's were completely acceptable, common shots); people who want to fly around with impunity at 50-100 mph in turny planes (for which you will only ever see the nose); and people who think that landing a head-on shot takes no skill or is high probability (which is incorrect, unless the target foolishly doesn't maneuver to get out of the way).

Don't fall for flying the way someone else wants you to fly.  Fly the way that you want to fly.  Take the shots you want to take.

Thats a pretty heavy blanket your throwing around there! I won't ho a buff or a storch. They are much easier to setup a guns pass than fighters because Im pretty sure they are NOT going to be pulling for the ho, the same goes for goons.

The point here is those who like the FIGHT pretty much don't ho. To big a chance of the fight ending prematurely. Those just wanting to rack up kills and points/perks don't care about a fight and just ho everything they can. Morph, Wiley and a few other pointed out they WILL take the ho shot, but I'll bet $1000 they don't actively seek ho shots. If it's there they will take it, but they don't go out of their way to set up for it.

Fly like you will. Hoers don't get a lot of respect. Others call them out all the time..... "watch it they xxx does nothing but ho". You see that more often than you get "check 6's"  It's your call.

[Skyyr]

Any shot is fine, including head on's.

Keep in mind that people who complain about head on's are all fine with head on's that they take against bombers or Storches.  Do bombers or Storches have better ability than fighters to defend themselves from the front or to evade head-on shots?  No.

People who complain about head on's include people who aren't thinking of history (where head on's were completely acceptable, common shots); people who want to fly around with impunity at 50-100 mph in turny planes (for which you will only ever see the nose); and people who think that landing a head-on shot takes no skill or is high probability (which is incorrect, unless the target foolishly doesn't maneuver to get out of the way).

Don't fall for flying the way someone else wants you to fly.  Fly the way that you want to fly.  Take the shots you want to take.

Well said, sir. A beacon of reason in a sea of hypocrisy! -=S=-

[Karnak]

I always have gone by "both opponents have gun solution on each other"

I count it is an HO if both planes were capably of having a guns solution even if one of the participants was trying to avoid the HO and thus didn't actually have a guns solution.  A front quarter shot would be one where one plane could get a guns solution and the other could not turn tight enough to get a firing solution.

[DmonSlyr]

Low and slow, meaning slow enough that he can point his nose at you and you can't evade.  Hard to push the nose down when you are already in between the trees.  


Here is a link to a film that demonstrates:

http://www19.zippyshare.com/v/95850306/file.html



The setup for the shot occurs @ the 6:30 mark.  The actual fight starts at 2:30 if interested.  With the way he was pulling hard, there was no reason for me not to fire a pre-emptive HO shot.  Notice he didn't so easily avoid it by doing what you suggest.  This pretty much explains what I'm referring to.


Airspeed for both planes is 130-135:

Okay, so yes you could have avoided that and pushed down and went to the right and then pull a loop over him. But I can see why you went ahead for the shot even though it could have been risky if he pulled in too.  Gotta say though you need to go verticle more in your flying. Also dont be afraid to roll to the right. I noticed you only basically rolled left. You could have had a lot more opportunity to make a shot on right snap roll over.

  I'm looking at some films and will try to get one posted

[Brooke]

Thats a pretty heavy blanket your throwing around there! I won't ho a buff or a storch.

True, it's a blanket statement, as you say -- and there are exceptions to anything in life -- but it's not a heavy blanket.  For example, I can't remember even once seeing a complaint about a fighter hoing a bomber, whereas I see it several times nearly every time I fly with regard to a fighter hoing a fighter.  (And really you wouldn't HO a bomber before he's by you and bombing your base or carrier?  And you wouldn't attack a bomber from 12 o'clock in shallow dive, aiming for the cockpit -- one of the classic Luftwaffe attacks?)

The point here is those who like the FIGHT pretty much don't ho.

That's *your* blanket statement.    I like fights as much as anyone else (or maybe moreso, given that I continue to love online air combat even after 26 years of it).

To me, a shot is a shot.  Some are good and some are bad depending on the situation, and there is no sacred direction.

 To big a chance of the fight ending prematurely.

That's not the case for most of the head-on shots I take.  I take them if they are good shots presenting little risk to me and not spoiling my next move, and work to avoid them otherwise (unless I have no options or its a vulch-swarm of a base).  It would be more technically correct for me to describe the shots I take as "forward-quarter shots," since they typically are not when the enemy and I are flying straight at each other.  Still, someone shot down by one of my forward-quarter shots, if he were to complain about it, would likely call it a HO.

Fly like you will. Hoers don't get a lot of respect. Others call them out all the time..... "watch it they xxx does nothing but ho". You see that more often than you get "check 6's"  It's your call.

I don't feel that I lack respect, or get "called out", or do nothing but HO, or lack getting check sixes.

[morfiend]

Morph, Wiley and a few other pointed out they WILL take the ho shot, but I'll bet $1000 they don't actively seek ho shots. If it's there they will take it, but they don't go out of their way to set up for it.

  Just to make it clear from my point of view,I will not go for a John Wayne merge,it simply puts me in a bad position and leaves few options!  When I said I would take a ho shot I mean what most call a ho and it's just a frontal aspect shot and usually the other player doesnt even have a shot.

   I call it the AAFA or acute angle frontal attack.......   That said I'd rather be a man and shoot you in the back!



     

[caldera]

Okay, so yes you could have avoided that and pushed down and went to the right and then pull a loop over him. But I can see why you went ahead for the shot even though it could have been risky if he pulled in too.  Gotta say though you need to go verticle more in your flying. Also dont be afraid to roll to the right. I noticed you only basically rolled left. You could have had a lot more opportunity to make a shot on right snap roll over.

  I'm looking at some films and will try to get one posted

At the time, I felt that the closure rate was slow enough that he could have wheeled around and chopped off my tail if I tried a right break.  The point where he went into circles on the deck, I probably should have dove for airspeed to gain a bit more alt but otherwise not sure how much more vertical I could have gotten.  Perhaps you could clarify that for me.

[DmonSlyr]

At the time, I felt that the closure rate was slow enough that he could have wheeled around and chopped off my tail if I tried a right break.  The point where he went into circles on the deck, I probably should have dove for airspeed to gain a bit more alt but otherwise not sure how much more vertical I could have gotten.  Perhaps you could clarify that for me.

I didn't get a chance to make a write up like I wanted to last night. So, after work, tonight I will explain to the fullest extent what I mean.

Edit: What I can tell you now though is that vert moves represent doing a half loop first and then creating an angle at the the top of the loop. What I saw you doing a lot was simply trying to roll around, but you were not climbing high enough before you rolled back over. When you do a higher loop first, you simultaneously get further behind them due to drag. Then you flip over and it creates a harder position for them to be able to pull up and roll over you because you started further back. So next time when you are about to roll over someone, stick your nose up another second longer, and I mean straight up then pull back, and then flip over.  
I'll explain and hopefully get a video posted later of the right snap stall maneuver that cripples unsuspecting planes. 

[BaldEagl]

Please HO me. I'll show you just how fast that will put you in a disadvantge.

Anyone who HO's and simply blows through won't be put at any disadvantage whatsoever other than during the HO pass.  Want to go try it in the DA?  I'll show you just how fast I get away.

[DmonSlyr]

Anyone who HO's and simply blows through won't be put at any disadvantage whatsoever other than during the HO pass.  Want to go try it in the DA?  I'll show you just how fast I get away.

Disadvantage as in, even though you are going fast, I now have a nice view of your arse and you will now be in a defensive state even if you do have more E than me. I mean, you could pull up and try to do a rope or pull a nose down turn and pull for a loaded roll, or fly straight until I turn away.  The key is, I will gain your 6 by anticipation while you are trying to make a HO shot, so now you have to defensively compensate or run away.

Also added: If you try to do a tight turn or pull a loop, I will have the advantage of pulling the loop inside of you.

[Aspen]

or run away

Thats the key part.  A HOer who stays in the fight can usually be put at a disadvantage.  The HOer in a fast plane that just keeps on trucking may give up his 6, but he's going 375 and the guy that maneuvered to avoid the HO and get pointed the other way isn't.