Hit Spikes and Engine Sounds

[Skuzzy]

Generally speaking, the cheaper you go the less efficient the sound card is.

If you are getting the same motherboard sound chip, on a card, you are wasting money and losing efficiency.

[Chalenge]

I have yet to see any proof from you that your sound card is increasing your FPS by a noticeable amount and or in a double blind test that one could tell the difference. And no chalenge im not excepting bloggers as experts but if everyone is saying the same thing along with tests that I did myself that prove what I'm saying.

EDIT: Skuzzy because you think I am so wrong about this please show me what chips you're talking about which can execute 128 instructions per cycle and yet use almost no power and not need any sort of heatsink.

Second EDIT: The first blog I linked the user "NwAvGuy" Is infact an expert in the field of audio reproduction and his O2DAC and OAMP are one of the best in the industry so I'm certain he knows slightly more than you.

I do not believe I ever said anything about FPS in this thread. I really doubt any audio is going to affect my FPS. I did mention latency. When I started playing AH I was using Vista, which had terrible problems but it was the audio that was really killing combat fun for me. I would get into heavy traffic areas and I would get freeze ups from the increased audio load. A freeze up is not FPS related, not GPU but CPU. I bought an audio card, but at the time there was a lot of false advertisement coming out about one particular audio card (SoundBlaster Live I believe) and when I bought that card it did not offer any improvement. So, I went out and bought every card I could find and finally settled on an HT Omega, which offered onboard sample conversions but no 3D positioning. I was still using this for a short time after Windows 7, until the SoundBlaster X-Fi Fatality hit the market (and even then I waited because I was still anti-Creative after the Live! situation). After finally buying a top-of-the-line Fatality I discovered that I could pinpoint tanks in AH even with simple headphones.

All of this history is recorded on the BBS here.

Now I use a ZxR. So many people shrug off comments about how their USB audio systems are robbing them that I really just don't care anymore. I told you what I had learned from first hand experience and you told me I was wrong. Pfft. . .

@jimson: Look at the SoundBlaster cards for 3D positioning. I think that right now your choices are Z ($83 Newegg), Zx ($150 Newegg), and ZxR ($209 Newegg). The ZxR is really only needed if you make/edit audio and even then you don't really need it. Right now Newegg has one Z refurb for $60. The Xonar Essence ($180) bears honorable mention, but the one I tested was too noisy to make me happy.

[Chalenge]

. . . No, your frame rate won't increase (maybe a little), but you will probably get fewer audio anomalies in heavy traffic. . .

Okay, maybe I did mention frame rates briefly. It is not at the core of the argument and therefore is not important.

More important was olds' suggestion that a CPU alone could process audio. That is just wrong. You have to have an output, and you have to at least have some software. Software does not simply load into memory but must run in order to get audio to a USB port or whatever. It will then take up more CPU time, require a percentage of operating time if you will. A sound card is always better. A sound card with 3D capabilities is ultimately superior.

[olds442]

Okay, maybe I did mention frame rates briefly. It is not at the core of the argument and therefore is not important.

More important was olds' suggestion that a CPU alone could process audio. That is just wrong. You have to have an output, and you have to at least have some software. Software does not simply load into memory but must run in order to get audio to a USB port or whatever. It will then take up more CPU time, require a percentage of operating time if you will. A sound card is always better. A sound card with 3D capabilities is ultimately superior.

So here is some actual real world numbers for everyone to compare.


The creative x-fi titanium HD uses the CA20k2 processor which runs at 400 mhz

The asus ROG xonar phoebus uses the CM8888 decoder, that's right it really has NO processor what so ever yet there are countless reviews and forum posts about how great this sound card is for "3D surround positioning"

Creative recon3D uses the "Core3D" (ca0132) "processor", creative didn't provide any documentation but as these graphics show the overall sound quality is terrible:

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/video/pcw/docs/501/874/recon3dlo.pdf

Also note the "core3D" processor in side all new creative cards is marketed as "quad core" but its really just 4 DSPs which do different things

"The "quad-core" moniker doesn't refer to there being four processing cores on the sound card, but a set of four DSPs, not necessarily hardware-accelerated, that work to give out the best audio. Two main DSP sets include Creative CrystalVoice and THX TruStudio Pro. THX TruStudio Pro is a DSP set that we're familiar with, some modern sound cards feature it, some motherboard vendors even pack it with their onboard HD audio solutions. THX TruStudio Pro provides THX TruStudio Pro Crystalizer, which works to improve clarity of lossy compressed audio, TruStudio Pro Surround creates a virtual 360 degree surround space that is touted to be better than the countless earlier attempts by various companies, at virtual surround. Smart Volume is a volume stabilizer that keeps in check abrupt volume spikes in games. Dialog Plus controls the mid frequencies to ensure the clearest voice dialog in games (cut-scenes or multiplayer voice chat). Lastly, Pro Bass is a bass compensation feature that works to restore lossy bass."

Notice how everything said there is to make bad audio sound better, again fancy words for basic EQs.

"The CrystalVoice DSP is another DSP that improves in-game voice chatter. Acoustic Echo Cancellation eliminates echos and talkback. Noise Reduction works to suppress background noise, sending through only the player's voice. Smart Volume stabilizes volume. FX allows users to morph their voice to remain anonymous."

In layman terms a DSP that does voice changing

"Microsoft Windows NT 6 kernel, used in operating systems since Windows Vista and Server 2008, saw a relocation of the audio stack, that effectively made hardware audio processing useless, because there's no direct access to hardware using DirectSound. There still is the third-party OpenAL API, but it is greatly limited and doesn't keep up with the latest sound resolutions. For Creative to stay competitive in the sound card industry, it has to do what its younger competitors such as ASUS, Auzentech (to an extant), and HT Omega realized long back, which is focusing on high signal-to-noise ratio (sound fidelity), and DSPs. Today's system processors by Intel and AMD are fast enough to process several DSP layers without impacting on system performance."

So the "Core3D quad core processor" actually is just 4 DSPs which do some nifty EQ settings and push the hard work to the CPU.

Here is link to article: http://www.techpowerup.com/151477/creative-rolls-out-sound-blaster-soundcore-3d-quad-core-pcie-sound-cards.html


So the last real creative sound card that used a real processor and RAM was the X-FI series (Now out of date and no longer being made) which ran at 400 mhz. Compared that to the 3 ghz + modern processors of today and it looses out. Creative is smart and not stating the FLOPS (Floating Point Operations Per Second) and simply stating the clock speed.

So riddle me this, if on board RAM and dedicated processor on a sound card so important then why did creative NOT do this on their new flagship "core3D" sound cards which include recon3D all the way up to sound blaster Z. I think you know why...

EDIT: And please don't start that "he is just a STUPID blogger!" BS because I can bring u creative documentation and microsoft documentation on audio processes.

[olds442]

 You also lose the true 3D sound positioning when you play audio through the HDMI port as the receiving decoder (the television, or receiver) expects decoding information to be sent with the interleaved audio stream.

Also this is incorrect with HDMI you can send 8 channels uncompressed directly to the receiver (7.1).

[Chalenge]

Okay, now I'm laughing. Thanks for proving my point.

[olds442]

Okay, now I'm laughing. Thanks for proving my point.

Um? ok by prove you mean disprove?

[Skuzzy]

Also this is incorrect with HDMI you can send 8 channels uncompressed directly to the receiver (7.1).

That is incorrect and quite physically impossible.

There are only six physical outbound data lanes available in the HDMI audio/video cable/connector.  Both video and audio are sent over those lanes in an interleaved manner with the decoding information a receiver needs in order to play it.

Yes, the audio can be uncompressed, but typically is not to save overhead on the cable.

Audio is not decoded before it is sent over the HDMI connection.  It is decoded by the receiving device.  Dolby 7.1 is interleaved in a single stream with the decoding data sent to the receiver.  This technique allows the audio to be sent over a digital link (single stream) or the HDMI cable without any further overhead to the sender.

[olds442]

That is incorrect and quite physically impossible.

There are only six physical outbound data lanes available in the HDMI audio/video cable/connector.  Both video and audio are sent over those lanes in an interleaved manner with the decoding information a receiver needs in order to play it.

Yes, the audio can be uncompressed, but typically is not to save overhead on the cable.

Audio is not decoded before it is sent over the HDMI connection.  It is decoded by the receiving device.  Dolby 7.1 is interleaved in a single stream with the decoding data sent to the receiver.  This technique allows the audio to be sent over a digital link (single stream) or the HDMI cable without any further overhead to the sender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Audio.2Fvideo

Quote from Audio/Video section "stereo (uncompressed) PCM. Other formats are optional, with HDMI allowing up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio at sample sizes of 16-bit, 20-bit and 24-bit, with sample rates of 32 kHz, 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 96 kHz, 176.4 kHz and 192 kHz."

I myself run full 1920x1080p and 7.1 surround through my HDMI cable coming from my 660ti.

EDIT: Also, how can it be

quite physically impossible.

and

Yes, the audio can be uncompressed

[Skuzzy]

Okay, let's try this again.

You lose the ability to play surround sound on an HDMI audio stream if you do not encode that stream with Dolby or DTS encoding.

Games do not encode true 3D with Dolby or DTS, thus when a game plays its true 3D audio over HDMI, it all comes out as either mono or stereo.

Windows does not need Dolby nor DTS encoding for applications to play sounds on any channel, as long as the channel is being played through a Windows based sound card, and not the HDMI output of a video card.

Maybe that is clearer.

The part I was talking about being impossible was simultaneously sending decoded Dolby channels over the HDMI connector.  You cannot do it.

[olds442]

Okay, let's try this again.

You lose the ability to play surround sound on an HDMI audio stream if you do not encode that stream with Dolby or DTS encoding.

Games do not encode true 3D with Dolby or DTS, thus when a game plays its true 3D audio over HDMI, it all comes out as either mono or stereo.

Windows does not need Dolby nor DTS encoding for applications to play sounds on any channel, as long as the channel is being played through a Windows based sound card, and not the HDMI output of a video card.

Maybe that is clearer.

The part I was talking about being impossible was simultaneously sending decoded Dolby channels over the HDMI connector.  You cannot do it.

Every game I play (aces high included)I used 7.1 channel surround in game and the individual speakers will infact play. I can play SACD 8 channel sources with out using a lossy format for audio transmission. I run 24 bit 192khz 8 channel uncompressed audio and NOT using dolby or DTS.

[Skuzzy]

Every game I play (aces high included)I used 7.1 channel surround in game and the individual speakers will infact play. I can play SACD 8 channel sources with out using a lossy format for audio transmission. I run 24 bit 192khz 8 channel uncompressed audio and NOT using dolby or DTS.

Through the HDMI cable?  Aces High sounds will play on all the speakers, without regard to position.  There is no position information, in the audio stream, for HDMI data coming from Aces High.

Through a sound card, the sounds will be played in the correct place as there is no decoding needed for positional placement.

Uh, you mean you set the maximum stream rate to 24 bit 192 khz.  If the source audio is less than that, that is what you will get, unless something is doing a conversion on the data, which does not do anything but add more overhead to the audio stream.  It certainly cannot improve the sound.


You can play a billion channel audio source through 1 wire, without it being lossy.  It is interleaved over HDMI, regardless of the compression or the encoding.  That is how they can cram more channels than there are physically available wires/paths through the cable.

[olds442]

Through the HDMI cable?  Aces High sounds will play on all the speakers, without regard to position.  There is no position information, in the audio stream, for HDMI data coming from Aces High.

Through a sound card, the sounds will be played in the correct place as there is no decoding needed for positional placement.

Uh, you mean you set the maximum stream rate to 24 bit 192 khz.  If the source audio is less than that, that is what you will get, unless something is doing a conversion on the data, which does not do anything but add more overhead to the audio stream.  It certainly cannot improve the sound.


You can play a billion channel audio source through 1 wire, without it being lossy.  It is interleaved over HDMI, regardless of the compression or the encoding.  That is how they can cram more channels than there are physically available wires/paths through the cable.

No what I mean is that it has the ability to run 24 bit 192 khz (My AVR doesn't play 192 khz well). I run 24 bit 48khz because most of my sources are that.

Also here:



Hardware implementation is irrelevant point was that HDMI with the sound through the video card is a perfectly normal and acceptable means of audio transmission

[Skuzzy]

Except for the fact you lost positional information going through the HDMI connection for any Windows application using true 3D positioning.

You see the "Speakers" icon?  Windows knows about the ones connected to the Xonar audio device.  You do not see that icon for the HDMI device, as there is no mechanism for Windows to know the speaker arrangement connected to the HDMI device.  So it cannot supply positional audio streams.

[olds442]

Except for the fact you lost positional information going through the HDMI connection for any Windows application using true 3D positioning.

You see the "Speakers" icon?  Windows knows about the ones connected to the Xonar audio device.  You do not see that icon for the HDMI device, as there is no mechanism for Windows to know the speaker arrangement connected to the HDMI device.  So it cannot supply positional audio streams.

When playing Aces High I can hear exactly where someone is and also the AVR updates its status as "5 channel pure direct". Playing dolby/DTS sources it will stay in this "5 channel pure direct" mode. Windows speaker tests also play all of the speakers and LFE correctly.

EDIT: And that icon is just a GUI feature which is user defined, for example look now: