Author Topic: Pistol question  (Read 1828 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2014, 04:30:06 PM »
Regarding the 22 for self defense, here is what actual self-defense data indicates as opposed to people's feelings on the matter:

"The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. . . . Caliber really isn't all that important. Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!"

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power

People talk a lot about getting attacked by the hopped-up, crazy maniac intent to his last breath on killing you and the need therefore to kill him in one shot.  That is a very small percentage of needs of use for self-defense handguns.  Out of 100% of the uses of handguns in self defense, some significant portion are going to be drawing the gun and having the attacker back off or run off.  Another significant proportion will be firing the gun, not even hitting, and the attacker running off.  Another proportion will be attackers who are hit but not hit severely and run off.  Way down at the bottom of the list of frequency is the maniac who won't stop attacking until he is dead.

Also, if that is your metric, then you need to carry a shotgun, not a handgun.  It's like saying, "Well, if a river floods, and I need to get through to get to the hospital or I'll die, I need an amphibious vehicle.  So, don't buy a Ford Focus -- you can get stuck in the river and die."  Yes, but the odds of that are miniscule, and the vast majority of people are not going to do all of their driving in an amphibious vehicle anyway.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a 22 that you will carry (because it is so small and light) is infinitely more effective than a larger-caliber handgun that you aren't carrying.

This idea that a 22 isn't capable in self defense or a good choice for self defense is, I think, incorrect.

A small 22 is easiest (and thus most likely) to be carried.  You can have a bigger gun in your glove compartment or at home.  At home, you can even have the best choice for defense:  a shotgun.

Offline BowHTR

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2014, 05:19:13 PM »
Do any of you guys own a Bond Arms 45/410 derringer?  If so are you happy with it?

I've been looking at getting another gun for a little while now and I've never owned or really been interested in pistols.  I've been considering getting one of these derringers because of their small size and large ammunition.

(Image removed from quote.)

What up Rob! We have one here at the house. Its a fun little gun and its not that difficult to control.

Here's one that I'd get if I wanted a very-small pistol:

(Image removed from quote.)

http://northamericanarms.com/firearms/lr/lr.html

22 is probably OK for most self defense in that a person shot with a 22 is probably going to stop what he is doing and try to get away from you.

Here's someone shooting with it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MihQcJMy8OI


We also have one of these, except ours is a 22 mag instead os 22lr. Both are fun guns to shoot.

Both would be an exceptional gun for self defense. However, if you come across someone on PCP or anything of that nature, you may want some more rounds.

If you decided to go with something bigger, id stay away from Glock. They are good guns, but just to bulky to be a simply pocket pistol. Id look into a Ruger LC9, S&W Bodyguard, or anything else of that size.
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Offline mbailey

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2014, 05:46:11 PM »
For something very small I'd go with Seecamp. Great guns and very reliable


I personally don't like small pocket guns for self def......actually I lie I do like my little SW MOD 60 in stainless. I can put it in the pocket of my shorts and it doesn't print at all.  Other than that I dress to carry so it doesn't make much difference.  My primary are my 1911 and p225

My little NAA 22mag is more of a novelty. 

To the OP. Good luck, hope you find something you like and works out for you.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2014, 07:05:57 PM »
+1 for the Seecamp, I've mentioned it here before many times as a great backup or tertiary backup pistol.  When I was working for SigArms, Bank Miller who was the lead trainer and ran not only the FBI but the Air Marshall shooting programs previously always recommended the Seecamp as Sig hadn't made a similar sized pistol yet then, as a tertiary or even secondary backup pistol.  I bought one based on this, and couldn't be happier with it, however it is expensive.

As for the OP, buy what you like, and remember, that the very WORST handgun made is still a 2x better option then the next available concealable defensive system.  .22 isn't optimal not because of any "performance" issues of the round itself, but largely due to the unreliable nature of rimfire primered cartridges, that's all.  With a revolver or multi barrel derringer, that reliability issue is negated for the most part, and personally, just IMO, I'd rather have a .22 derringer or small revolver, or even auto, than no pistol at all. 

Offline BowHTR

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2014, 08:35:04 PM »
I'd rather have a .22 derringer or small revolver, or even auto, than no pistol at all. 

+1 Any pistol is better than no pistol. Thats as true as it gets!

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Offline SilverZ06

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2014, 08:56:59 PM »
I bought a glock 27 (sub-compact .40) to carry and found it to be too bulky to comfortably carry on a daily bases. I was always worried I was showing an imprint of the gun through my clothes. I was just uncomfortable concealing it. It is my favorite gun and I still have it but I rarely carry it. Instead I bought what my friends and I refer to as "the noisy cricket." A smith and wesson 360pd.



A .357magnum that weighs in under 12grams empty. This is the ideal carry gun for me. I pair it with a holster that goes in my front pocket and leaves and imprint that resembles a wallet. When you draw the gun the holster sticks to the pocket material and stays in your pocket. To say this gun kicks like a mule on cocaine is an understatement. But it is not a range gun. I take it to the range and fire about 20 rounds through it before the rubberized grip tears my skin between my thumb and index finger. It would tear my skin because you have to grip the gun so tight with only 3 fingers when you shot the kick would make the gun jump and the rubber grip would take your skin with it. I was okay with this because as I said this is not a range gun. This is a comfortable carry gun that I shoot well and has lots of stopping power. Unfortunately I sold the gun to my friend to help offset the cost of my Browning 725 shotgun for clay shooting. I regret selling that gun and now the prices have sky rocketed on them. I paid $600 new and now they are around $1000 new. Now I am back to uncomfortably carrying the glock 27 when I need to carry. Dont get me wrong, I love the glock and it is my favorite gun and I am extremely accurate with it. I just feel for an everyday carry piece it is too bulky. If I dont get another 360pd I think im going to look into the small ruger lcp or lcr series.

Offline Serenity

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2014, 09:03:29 PM »
Regarding the 22 for self defense, here is what actual self-defense data indicates as opposed to people's feelings on the matter:

"The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. . . . Caliber really isn't all that important. Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!"

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power

People talk a lot about getting attacked by the hopped-up, crazy maniac intent to his last breath on killing you and the need therefore to kill him in one shot.  That is a very small percentage of needs of use for self-defense handguns.  Out of 100% of the uses of handguns in self defense, some significant portion are going to be drawing the gun and having the attacker back off or run off.  Another significant proportion will be firing the gun, not even hitting, and the attacker running off.  Another proportion will be attackers who are hit but not hit severely and run off.  Way down at the bottom of the list of frequency is the maniac who won't stop attacking until he is dead.

Also, if that is your metric, then you need to carry a shotgun, not a handgun.  It's like saying, "Well, if a river floods, and I need to get through to get to the hospital or I'll die, I need an amphibious vehicle.  So, don't buy a Ford Focus -- you can get stuck in the river and die."  Yes, but the odds of that are miniscule, and the vast majority of people are not going to do all of their driving in an amphibious vehicle anyway.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a 22 that you will carry (because it is so small and light) is infinitely more effective than a larger-caliber handgun that you aren't carrying.

This idea that a 22 isn't capable in self defense or a good choice for self defense is, I think, incorrect.

A small 22 is easiest (and thus most likely) to be carried.  You can have a bigger gun in your glove compartment or at home.  At home, you can even have the best choice for defense:  a shotgun.

I'm not saying it's not possible to defend ones self with a .22. However, even the article points out that something as simple as heavy clothing may rule a .22 inadequate. Additionally, looking at your situations, while the majority of the time, you're going to be scaring an individual off without killing them, (A psychological stop, according to your article) a larger weapon is going to be more effective at this. Not to mention that while the number of hits were somewhat similar with .22 with regard to required number to stop the attack, significantly more individuals NEVER ceased to be a threat when engaged with .22 than .45 according to that article. And while the jump from a Ford to an amphib to cover a minute possibility is pretty huge, the difference in weight and size between that .22 derringer and the sig 938 is incredibly small! And considering how small the chances of EVER needing a firearm are, if you're going to go so far as to carry at all, you ought to be prepared to go all the way in any eventuality. Again, I don't claim to know anything, but if I'm going to carry, I want to carry something in which I can be confident in any situation. I don't want to have to count on a "psychological" stop. I want to be capable of a physical stop, quickly, should the need arise. That Sig is TINY, and it will do the job. But then again, I'm also perfectly happy to tote a 1911 around every day.

Offline Serenity

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2014, 09:09:17 PM »
If I dont get another 360pd I think im going to look into the small ruger lcp or lcr series.

I like a big gun. Whether on my hip or in my hand, I love the heft of a 1911. One of my very good friends is a big fan of mouse guns (And being hobbit sized and skinny, he has to be...). He started with the LCP and really didn't like it at all. It was even more uncomfortable to shoot than you would expect, and the fit and finish seemed cheap. After about 3 months he traded it in for the Sig 938. I feel like a broken record consistently bringing that one up, especially since I don't own one myself, but of all the mouse guns I've shot, it's the most accurate, best made and most reliable. Give it a look if you're considering the LCP.

Offline Ratsy

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2014, 10:51:11 PM »
As a former gun Sales man and a gun enthusiast, this gun just looks like a accident waiting to happen. If you want  a .410/45LC weapon look at the poly judge.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=850&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41

We keep a Judge at the ranch for rattle snakes around the house.  4-0 Us.

It's a big, heavy pistola,  tho.

Wife has a mid-size Beretta.  13 rounds and big enough to handle safely.  I wouldn't want her to carry anything smaller.

And no.  I don't go out of my way to irritate her.   :cool:

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Offline Rob52240

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2014, 11:24:10 PM »
As a former gun Sales man and a gun enthusiast, this gun just looks like a accident waiting to happen. If you want  a .410/45LC weapon look at the poly judge.

http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=850&category=Revolver&toggle=tr&breadcrumbseries=41

Why do you see it as an accident waiting to happen?

It's a single action pistol with a safety.


As far as self defense use goes, most violent crime happens at distances < 10' and most property crime happens at arms length. 

Weather or not I'm exercising my 2nd amendment right in public I nearly always have a Buck 110 in pocket.  I spent 5 years being a butcher and use my Norton 313 in addition to soft & hard Arkansas stones to keep it well honed.  I think the Buck knife will keep me as safe as any pistol should the need arise.


What up Rob! We have one here at the house. Its a fun little gun and its not that difficult to control.
 

We also have one of these, except ours is a 22 mag instead os 22lr. Both are fun guns to shoot.

Both would be an exceptional gun for self defense. However, if you come across someone on PCP or anything of that nature, you may want some more rounds.

If you decided to go with something bigger, id stay away from Glock. They are good guns, but just to bulky to be a simply pocket pistol. Id look into a Ruger LC9, S&W Bodyguard, or anything else of that size.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2014, 11:52:40 PM »
.44 Snubbie with SPL ammo, but if you plan on a lot of shooting the ammo is a little higher.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2014, 12:58:31 AM »
.

My belief isn't that a 22 is better for self defense for a person who is willing always to carry something larger.

My belief is that, because a 22 is nearly as good as something larger with respect to probability of stopping an attack, it is a decent choice, and for the person who would otherwise carry nothing, it is an infinitely better choice.

With that said, on to specifics.

the article points out that something as simple as heavy clothing may rule a .22 inadequate.

The article doesn't say that.  It says that the test didn't take cover, or clothing, or car doors into account and went on to say that, if you are needing to shoot through car doors, larger calibers are useful.  In fact, from tests, many of which you can view on youtube, it is clear that 22's go through clothing.

Quote
(A psychological stop, according to your article) a larger weapon is going to be more effective at this.

That is your supposition, but not mine.  I would bet the process "He's drawn a gun!  OK, let me see what caliber it is.  Hmm, it's a 22.  OK, although I would run if it were a 38, I think I can take some 22 hits, so I'm not running." almost never factors into the thought process.  I had a gun drawn on me once.  I had just gotten into the passenger side of a car and closed the door when a punk on the street put a gun barrel right up to the window and pointed at my face.  I didn't move, but the driver of the car drove off.   Afterwards, I replayed it in my mind and suspected that the gun was actually either a pellet gun or maybe a 22 -- it certainly wasn't a 45.  None of that calculation ran through my mind at the time.

Quote
significantly more individuals NEVER ceased to be a threat when engaged with .22 than .45 according to that article.

Number of people not incapacitated who took 22 hits was 31%.  For the 45 ACP, it was 14% -- so a difference of 17 percentage points.  But, again, the number of times a person needs to completely incapacitate an attacker in order to stop an attack is small.  The average number of shots to stop an attack for the 22 was about the same as the 45 (1.38 vs. 2.08 -- probably within the noise of the statistic).

Also, total effectiveness of a handgun is not just probability of stopping an attack (let's call that Pstop).  It is Pstop x (probability that you have the gun on you) -- call that Ptot = Pstop x Pcarry.  Pstop for larger calibers probably isn't that much greater than a 22, but even if it were, Pcarry for larger calibers is probably much smaller than for 22's.  As a result, when you are looking at a population and not just yourself (as you are willing to carry something larger than a 22 100% of the time), a 22 is a good recommendation.

Quote
And considering how small the chances of EVER needing a firearm are, if you're going to go so far as to carry at all, you ought to be prepared to go all the way in any eventuality.

All of your arguments apply to the recommendation to carry a shotgun instead of a 45.  Of course, again, the Pcarry for a shotgun is much, much smaller than for a 45 or a 22, Ptot isn't very good, and so it isn't a good recommendation to the general population for carrying around for self defense.  But, if you were willing to carry around a shotgun 100% of the time, then a shotgun would be a better choice for you than a 45.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 01:00:29 AM by Brooke »

Offline Brooke

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2014, 01:09:23 AM »
Basically, the upshot from the data:  a 22 is on average a good self-defense gun.

It is not a poor choice; and it is not true that anything less than a 38, 9 mm, 45 or whatever, is ineffective.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2014, 02:23:00 AM »
The U.S. Army learned when fighting the Juramentados (Moros of Mindanao) that small caliber weapons possess no stopping power and that even a solitary enemy could advance and kill with melee weapons before they would bleed out. I think the Moros practice of limb wrapping is about the equal of a drugged up aggressor, but anyway that is precisely why the U.S. military adopted the .45 caliber and why the Thompson was developed.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Pistol question
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2014, 02:58:09 AM »
The U.S. Army learned

Yes, but a military battle is vastly different than civilian self defense.  The data isn't a study of 22 pistols used as a primary weapon to stop enemies fighting to the death in a war.

The data is saying that for civilian self defense in the US, a 22 is effective.