The Loaded Roll: My favorite defense trick in the book

[DmonSlyr]

I was finally able to get a good film I wanted of this maneuver. Very important for defensive flying!

I don't know why the sound is not working, this is my first video I've posted to youtube.

Enjoy!

P.S Thank me later

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAi_TRAV4E8

[Zerstorer]

What I use to get most of my defensive kills in the 110.  The roll I use isn't quite that tight, however.

[Kingpin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAi_TRAV4E8

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially a Barrel Roll Defense, like what has been shown since this old (2006?) animation? http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.gif

Yours is certainly a nice roll to set up the shot, but I believe your break turn into the attacker prior to the roll makes the whole ACM shown more than just a loaded roll, and puts it into the realm of the BRD, no?  (I'm not saying what you show is wrong, as it's a great maneuver, I just want to confirm my understanding of a loaded roll as a maneuver vs. the BRD as combined ACM is correct.)

Cool film with pilot view.  And very nice shot at the end!

<S>
Ryno

[DmonSlyr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially a Barrel Roll Defense, like what has been shown since this old (2006?) animation? http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Animations/Animation6.gif

Yours is certainly a nice roll to set up the shot, but I believe your break turn into the attacker prior to the roll makes the whole ACM shown more than just a loaded roll, and puts it into the realm of the BRD, no?  (I'm not saying what you show is wrong, as it's a great maneuver, I just want to confirm my understanding of a loaded roll as a maneuver vs. the BRD as combined ACM is correct.)

Cool film with pilot view.  And very nice shot at the end!

<S>
Ryno

Essentially, it could be 2 different maneuvers combined. A nose down turn fist, then a loaded roll, it is not a direct barrel roll and this roll generally works simultaneously with a nose down turn.

It is a half loop then a roll to conceive the angle, the illusion makes it seem like it could be a barrel roll or a loop, when it is actually both. It would not be a BRD because it's more extreme in the vertical. The nose down turn is designed to kill the opponents E by forcing them to make a tough angle shot, then follow you vertical as you are performing the loaded roll over them.

Another way to explain.
 The tough angle shot forces them to blackout or lose sight of you, as you are positioned under their nose, then you pull the loaded roll and use their momentum from the nose down turn to their disadvantage by doing an opposite direction loaded roll over the top for a quick snap shot as they go in the vertical.

And yes the video does demonstrate that maneuver as well. I haven't seen that film in a while.

[TequilaChaser]

Hey DmonSlyr,

I just watched your youtube video...... nice set up and shooting 

whether one is using a nose low break turn to force the overshoot for the beginning of a barrel roll defense, a rolling scissors, or what have you, they all pretty much start out the same way.........


sometimes one can even be going nose high and preform the same break turn followed with barrel roll, provided they have enough E to follow through with it...

the key is forcing your opponent to follow "Their Greed" or "Fixation on you" baiting them in... that's where they are flying what's known as gunsight bfm..... not actually being able to see the fight in a 3-D perspective

If that Yak in your video had their mindset in the right place, they would of went high and away from your down and right turn heading........ this is where SA steps in and people playing can only learn from experiencing this type of fight over and over several hundreds of times.... some finally get and can eventually see it coming, while others never will... and will keep on falling for it......

btw.... is one of my favorite maneuvers to do.... also love a good elongated rolling scissors duel.....

<S>

TC of the Damned

[DmonSlyr]

Hey DmonSlyr,

I just watched your youtube video...... nice set up and shooting  

whether one is using a nose low break turn to force the overshoot for the beginning of a barrel roll defense, a rolling scissors, or what have you, they all pretty much start out the same way.........


sometimes one can even be going nose high and preform the same break turn followed with barrel roll, provided they have enough E to follow through with it...

the key is forcing your opponent to follow "Their Greed" or "Fixation on you" baiting them in... that's where they are flying what's known as gunsight bfm..... not actually being able to see the fight in a 3-D perspective

If that Yak in your video had their mindset in the right place, they would of went high and away from your down and right turn heading........ this is where SA steps in and people playing can only learn from experiencing this type of fight over and over several hundreds of times.... some finally get and can eventually see it coming, while others never will... and will keep on falling for it......

btw.... is one of my favorite maneuvers to do.... also love a good elongated rolling scissors duel.....

<S>

TC of the Damned

Yes, this move works great against people who are not aware they are getting pulled into a maneauver death trap.

I wanted to share this maneuver to prove to some of the new guys that defensive flying has its perks. You don't have to run away!

Also If you are going slow and have planes diving on you constantly, this is the move to learn.

If the yak would have pulled up into a loop to come back around, I would have pulled the same maneuver again. Although it gets a bit tougher each time as the enemy gets slower and slower every time they pull for another loop, however if you can get them slow by doing this, they will eventually follow thinking they can hit you. If you pull the manauver on a plane that is going pretty slow and you are able to get around on them, they will be stuck right in your sights for an easy kill.

[Kingpin]

It is a half loop then a roll to conceive the angle, the illusion makes it seem like it could be a barrel roll or a loop, when it is actually both. It would not be a BRD because it's more extreme in the vertical. The nose down turn is designed to kill the opponents E by forcing them to make a tough angle shot, then follow you vertical as you are performing the loaded roll over them.

Oh, I do understand the maneuver(s) used.  The distinction I was trying to clarify and perhaps get confirmation on is the difference between the single maneuver of a "loaded roll" vs. a "Barrel Roll Defense" -- in other words BFM vs. ACM.  It's kind of a semantics thing, but an important one in my opinion, especially for newer folks trying to grasp the difference.  I think of a  "loaded roll" as a single maneuver, whereas the Barrel Roll defense is ACM -- applying and adapting several maneuvers into a dynamic combat setting to gain advantage against an opponent.  

I think just calling this a "loaded roll" is selling yourself a bit short, actually.  The whole ACM is more complex than that.  You make a nice nose low break turn (increasing the closure rate and making it impossible for the Yak to pull lead -- as you said), then force the overshoot with a roll over the top, all while keeping the enemy sight to see how he reacts (another important distinction between BFM and ACM).  Since the Yak keeps turning, you roll your nose into a lead angle for the shot (again, nicely executed) and then make an excellent snap shot.  I think all of these put together are important to point out.

That is also why I think I would still categorize this as a BRD, despite the "size" of the roll (though extreme in the vertical, as you said).  I guess I was looking for someone to back me up on that idea.  Just as TC said the nature of the break turn (nose high or nose low) can vary, so too can the size (or vertical aspect) of the roll vary, depending on what you need to force the overshoot (which depends on the relative speed of the attacker).  

Regardless of what we agree to call it, the film is a good example of how to use the attackers speed, and (more importantly) over-aggressiveness, against them.  Nicely done.

<S>
Ryno

[JunkyII]

I always thought this was a BRD...

[DmonSlyr]

Oh, I do understand the maneuver(s) used.  The distinction I was trying to clarify and perhaps get confirmation on is the difference between the single maneuver of a "loaded roll" vs. a "Barrel Roll Defense" -- in other words BFM vs. ACM.  It's kind of a semantics thing, but an important one in my opinion, especially for newer folks trying to grasp the difference.  I think of a  "loaded roll" as a single maneuver, whereas the Barrel Roll defense is ACM -- applying and adapting several maneuvers into a dynamic combat setting to gain advantage against an opponent. 

I think just calling this a "loaded roll" is selling yourself a bit short, actually.  The whole ACM is more complex than that.  You make a nice nose low break turn (increasing the closure rate and making it impossible for the Yak to pull lead -- as you said), then force the overshoot with a roll over the top, all while keeping the enemy sight to see how he reacts (another important distinction between BFM and ACM).  Since the Yak keeps turning, you roll your nose into a lead angle for the shot (again, nicely executed) and then make an excellent snap shot.  I think all of these put together are important to point out.

That is also why I think I would still categorize this as a BRD, despite the "size" of the roll (though extreme in the vertical, as you said).  I guess I was looking for someone to back me up on that idea.  Just as TC said the nature of the break turn (nose high or nose low) can vary, so too can the size (or vertical aspect) of the roll vary, depending on what you need to force the overshoot (which depends on the relative speed of the attacker). 

Regardless of what we agree to call it, the film is a good example of how to use the attackers speed, and (more importantly) over-aggressiveness, against them.  Nicely done.

<S>
Ryno

Thanks a lot for the comments.


Yeah I always just assumed it was a single ACM. But I definitely do think it could be separated into 2 different maneuvers because you dont have to do the roll,  However, I wouldn't recommend doing this loaded roll without first going into the nose down turn.  I'm not a real pilot so I cannot accurately interpret the correct connotation of the maneuvers and I haven't directly studied it so I'm not sure which to call it.

The reason I don't think it is directly a BRD is because a BRD would happen if both of you were in a scissors at close range and you got into the position of being able to cut engine and do a right BR over the the top to squeeze inside of them. Or if f they are going extremely fast and you had to do a quick roll as they speed past you for an over shoot.  So yes you'd still have to enter a slight verticle angle but not extreme and its more of a quick roll rather than a loop to roll technique.

The loaded roll is mainly performed when you are forced to go into a nose down turn.  And you made a good point kingpin, when I do the nose down turn, I try get as close to them as possible (without them hitting me) to shorten the distance. The tighter you can make the turn the easier it is to do the loaded roll over them and the heavier they black out in the turn.

I also attempt to get enemies in this "advantage" position when they are maybe about to HO me. Instead of flying straigt at them, turn left or right, give them a very tough shot to make, and when they miss, you can perform this same loaded roll to gain their 6 after the merge.





This move

[FLS]

When you combine a roll input and a pitch up the result is a ___________ .


A. Lag displacement roll
B. Barrel roll
C. Corkscrew
D. Loaded roll
E. All of the above

[morfiend]

When you combine a roll input and a pitch up the result is a ___________ .


A. Lag displacement roll
B. Barrel roll
C. Corkscrew
D. Loaded roll
E. All of the above

   

 Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS........  It's A,B,C,D and maybe just E.....




   

[Puma44]

   

 Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS,Mr. FLS........  It's A,B,C,D and maybe just E.....




   

Good answer Morf, and the most accurate one since there's no discussion or apparent awareness of lift vector application going on.

[Kingpin]

since there's no discussion or apparent awareness of lift vector application going on.

Another good point, Puma. 

I was starting by trying to make the distinction between the "loaded roll" just being one maneuver and the Barrel Roll Defense being the overall ACM.

<S>
Ryno

[Puma44]

It's good you recognize there is a difference.  Not pointing at you or anyone else here, but when a statement is made that "when you see this, do this loaded barrel roll" to defeat it (AS AN EXAMPLE FOR DISCUSSION) without any discussion about lift vector and how it should be applied, it suggests a lack of basic BFM fundamentals.  It's not possible to say, when you see a guy do this, pull a double ratsinfrats out of your bag of tricks and you'll defeat him.  Dogfighting is a very fluid situation and requires constant adjustments to counter the opponent.  So, suggesting a loaded roll will defeat this situation or that, most likely won't work. The opponent will see your loaded roll and adjust his lift vector to counter the move he/she sees.  

[Puma44]

The loaded roll is mainly performed when you are forced to go into a nose down turn. 

Why is that?